Sensible Erection | In suspected Jerusalem lynch, dozens of Jewish youths attack 3 Palestinians

Friday, 17 August 2012

In suspected Jerusalem lynch, dozens of Jewish youths attack 3 Palestinians

quote [ ". two volunteers [from local charities] went into the circle, they tried to perform CPR the mass of youths standing around started to say resentfully that we are resuscitating an Arab, and when they passed near us and saw that the rest of the volunteers were shocked, they asked why we were so in shock, he is an Arab. ]

Sure, 'News at 11' etc but this a harrowing tale that is important not only for its location. We've all given up hope, but when we leave it to the Rabbis and the Mullahs...

[politics] [by pleaides@11:24amGMT] [+10 WTF]

Comments

CommanderCherkinov said @ 12:59pm GMT on 17th Aug [Score:-5 Flamebait]
If only it was 3 Israelis getting attacked by Palestinians....then the world wouldn't have to worry because, by some twist of logic, Pallies killing Israelis isn't a crime.

Milkman666 said @ 1:08pm GMT on 17th Aug [Score:5 Insightful]
clapping moron

KingPellinore said @ 1:13pm GMT on 17th Aug
Well...guess I'd better go get my waders...

pleaides said @ 1:15pm GMT on 17th Aug

rangerx said @ 1:14pm GMT on 17th Aug [Score:1 Insightful]
We need a +1 Sad mod....

pleaides said @ 1:17pm GMT on 17th Aug [Score:1 Insightful]
Yeah. Such derangement in the minds of the young leaves one little hope.

sanepride said @ 8:41pm GMT on 17th Aug
I'll disagree. The minds of the young are not fully formed and more prone to impulsive behavior. This is one of the key arguments against executions and life sentences for under-age killers. The fact that young people do stupid, cruel things is a fact of life and human development. It's quite possible some of these young jerks will mature and come to regret their actions. Unfortunately, given their surroundings and influences, it's also possible some won't.

chold_numa said @ 6:19am GMT on 18th Aug [Score:1 Insightful]
You'd be wrong to be too hopeful. The binding of Jewish identity to Zionism, and in some cases outright Jewish racial supremacy has been on the rise for the last decade or two. It's changed, and for the worse.

Some of the uglier bits of the Third Reich racial policies are already, de facto, in place. Different and selective enforcement of laws, segregation into different geographic neighborhoods, destruction and forced seizure of property, denial of economic opportunity, and policies of ethnic cleansing. It's all obviously gussied up and media managed, especially for foreign media consumption, but the effect is the same.

The abused child becomes a child abuser themselves. If Israel were to elect to go to war, I imagine there'd be less scrutiny and likely more abuses.

sanepride said @ 1:49am GMT on 19th Aug
Well my comment was intended as statement on the impetuousness of youth, not particular ideology. But I would not label these punks specifically as 'Zionists'. Their actions were no different than violent hate crimes committed here in the US, the UK, or any country.
As for your analysis of Zionism in general, I might agree with the abused child analogy and that would be it. Zionism started as a largely secular movement and people who might still use that label today come in all flavors- including those devoted to peaceful coexistence with a Palestinian state and full rights for Arab Israeli citizens.
As for your contention about 'The binding of Jewish identity to Zionism', you are just flat out wrong and engaging in the same kind of ugly accusations as people like Ahmadinijad- that there is essentially no distinction between 'Jewish' and 'Israeli' and 'Zionist'. Not only are most American Jews not Zionists in any practical way, some of the most religious Jews are fervently anti-Zionist (due to their rigid interpretation of scripture).
The hate crime described here is apparently unusual enough to garner attention, and is being investigated by Israeli law enforcement. Is this in any way equatable to the Third Reich? Even at their worst, no official acts or policies of Israel even come close to this kind of comparison. Here you're being just hyperbolic and frankly ignorant.

bruceski said @ 3:25am GMT on 19th Aug
I believe what he was trying to say is not that there is no difference, but rather that the hawkish segment tries to encourage a link to strengthen their position. It's something I've experienced from within Judaism, to try and turn religion into nationalism for a foreign nation. Useful in negotiations with America, just look at how various presidents' and candidates' relationship with Israel have come up in the press. Not as if Israel is particularly important in itself (though it can be depending on the topic being discussed) but as if Israel is the deciding factor in votes of American Jews.

sanepride said @ 5:19am GMT on 19th Aug
I didn't get that subtle distinction, especially in a comment that also evokes 'the Third Reich'.

chold_numa said @ 6:19am GMT on 19th Aug
Righto.

Bit late to this, but I can see that you are offended, so straight off, I'll apologise for any offense caused. I didn't mean diaspora Jewish identity, rather Israeli Jewish identity which, I'm sure you agree is closely associated with Zionism for a growing majority of Israeli Jews. I think you'll also agree it's been getting progressively worse rather than better over the last 2 decades.

Secondly, the Third Reich comment was out of line, especially due to the significance the Holocaust has in modern Jewish identity. I can see how, if you were Jewish that you would take offence. Again, apologies. However, it is probably the closest any person from a Western industrialised nation has had to heavily institutionalised racism as experienced by people from colonised nations, including Africa, Asia and the Americas. Concentration camps, unequal application of justice, destruction of economic resources, removal of leaders, massacres etc are all part of European colonial history. It's all the more stark when executed in Europe by a heavily industrialised nation. The Holocaust is a culmination of centuries of colonial practices writ large on an industrial scale. Colonisation is also what Israel is doing to the West Bank and Gaza, and attempts to do the Lebanon. Some bits of Zionism can put a nice bit of cognitive smokescreen over the reality of this. This is not to say that Zionism is in itself evil, rather that this is what its being used for.

So, I'd ask that you don't take it as a personal attack, or a condemnation of Jewish people outside of Israel (or indeed on the gradually decreasing number of secular/moderate Jews within Israel). There is however, a definite rise in racially based discrimination and violence, based in Jewish racial identity within Israel. It's a surprisingly small step from "we're different and special" to "we're superior and divinely chosen".

sanepride said @ 3:20am GMT on 21st Aug
OK, I appreciate your elaborating, though I still don't necessarily agree with your contentions. It's important to note the tension existing within Israeli society between those we might call 'colonizers', i.e. the West Bank settlers, and those who oppose them. Despite incursions in Lebanon there is no attempt to settle or colonize there, and despite the ongoing blockade definitely not in Gaza, where settlers were forcibly evicted years ago, so your information is a bit faulty. Otherwise the situation in the Occupied Territories is more akin to apartheid, and with Arab citizens of Israel a kind of institutional discrimination (they do officially have full rights and parliamentary representation).
But I still say this particular incident is a kind of anomaly and uniquely thuggish in its nature. It's worth noting that police have responded, and several teenagers are in police custody, and they are, apparently as I suggested, just a bunch of young idiot punks.

chold_numa said @ 6:29am GMT on 21st Aug
That's true at the moment, but demographically, and with the state of Israeli democracy at the moment (and conceivably in the future), the settlement of Gaza, and the West Bank will be on the cards 30-40 years from now. At that point, the generation that these are in teenagers will be charge. Perhaps it will be sooner if there's a catalyst for it. If another chunk of Lebanon is conquered as a buffer zone, I can see that the Golan would be de-mined and used for settlement.

There's no questioning that what is happening is apartheid, but with ongoing land/house seizures, forcible removal, and the ongoing situation with illegal settlements, the agenda is different. There's a long way to go until there are death camps or forced labour, (and I doubt things will go that way) but I expect that things won't get better at this rate.

spazm said @ 1:20pm GMT on 17th Aug [Score:1 WTF]
From the comments...

Wrong
By Arnold-Canada 17 Aug 201202:21PM
This is all wrong.. Why are we ( Jews ) acting like them ( Arabs )

Words fail.

pleaides said @ 1:24pm GMT on 17th Aug
Damn. I was depressed enough already :/

Croatia said @ 2:02pm GMT on 17th Aug
+1 Sad

Especially when I read Ben Yehuda street. I walked on that very same street a few years ago. To think that the situation in Jerusalem has become so fucked that this could have happened right in front of me.. It is so sad. The poor animals (Israeli Zionists).. this is what happens with US support. They feel entitled.

If I saw this I wouldnt have stood idly by. Would I have died as well?

pleaides said @ 2:17pm GMT on 17th Aug [Score:1 Insightful]
It's not US support that justifies this zealous barbarism, it's *divine* support imho.

I also like to think I would've tried to prevent this horror had I been on hand. In which case we both might have died to protect the innocent. I can think of no more worthy way to spend the coinage of life than that.

I envy your having visited the area, it's one of my (many) dreams.

azazel said @ 6:28pm GMT on 17th Aug
I'm sorry but... "the poor animals"?

GordonGuano said @ 7:16pm GMT on 17th Aug
Would you bet on them passing the gom jabbar? I'm okay with defining humanity as something you have to earn or could lose. Many, perhaps most, others are not.

erich wiess said @ 10:12pm GMT on 17th Aug [Score:-2]

Israeli Zionists = Animals

The Tolerant Left

sanepride said @ 10:20pm GMT on 17th Aug
And so when you refer to "The Tolerant Left", are you not guilty of the same broad, stereotyping generalizing?

erich wiess said @ 12:19am GMT on 18th Aug [Score:-2 Troll]

It’s revealing that you took greater offence at my comment than at his.

(BTW, once you’d cobbled together the triumph of quasi-literacy that is “broad, stereotyping generalizing,” was there anything left in the thesaurus or did you cook through the whole entry in that one herculean feat of redundancy?)

Dioxin said @ 3:37am GMT on 18th Aug
It's revealing that you took greater issue with his word choice rather than the fact that a young man was almost beaten to death.

bruceski said @ 5:39am GMT on 18th Aug
Words are important, and since the attacking crowd isn't reading this there's not much we can say here to change THEIR actions.

Dioxin said @ 7:20am GMT on 18th Aug
Erich could have used his words to decry such actions, for the benefit of others who will be reading his words.

sanepride said @ 1:52am GMT on 19th Aug
He could have used his words to address my question instead of just being a dick.

sanepride said @ 4:36am GMT on 18th Aug
It's revealing that you think I took greater offense at your comment. I said nothing of the sort. If I were to engage in similar broad stereotyping generalizing I might suggest you suffered from typical right-wing persecution complex.

GordonGuano said @ 10:35pm GMT on 17th Aug
Gaius Helen Mohiam didn't see any need to maim potential humans, nor do I.

chold_numa said @ 3:35pm GMT on 18th Aug
So... nerve induction for all involved? We have the technology.

Naruki said @ 7:32am GMT on 18th Aug [Score:-1]
erich's mom = crack whore

The Sad Truth

azazel said @ 11:10pm GMT on 17th Aug
I can't think of many insults worse than calling a people "animals"; it speaks volumes what the person thinks about them. You'd have to use a pretty big brush to paint every Israeli Zionist an animal based on what a small group of them does. The kids that did this are despicable, but I don't want to brand the majority from the actions of a few.

Skuld said @ 11:35pm GMT on 17th Aug [Score:1 Underrated]
That is one interpretation, and probably the one intended in this case. On the other hand, we are of course all animals, and that calling a person an animal is very likely to be considered an insult speaks volumes of our self-obsession. Personally, I am quite happy to be an animal.

azazel said @ 1:16am GMT on 18th Aug [Score:4 Insightful]
There's a difference between "we're all animals" and "they're all animals."

Skuld said @ 10:32am GMT on 18th Aug
Absolutely, I'm just commenting on the absurdity of it being considered an insult. Just replace animal with mammal, vetrebrate, plant, fungus, and it becomes quite a ridiculous statement.

Milkman666 said @ 7:07pm GMT on 18th Aug
Its not that absurd really. There is a history in describing specific classes of people or ethnicities as animals in order to justify treating them as we would live stock. Thats the main distinction thats being made, an animal is a non-sentient creature that you're free to buy, sell, and kill, with certain restrictions depending on local ordinances.

In practice you can see folks shift different mammals out of the animal category, like dogs for instance. You go tell a dog owner that it would be much more economically sensible to put down their suffering pet and buy a new puppy instead of paying thousands of dollars on medical care. you'll get the stinkeye with the reply "Mittens is not just an animal, they're part of the family".

Skuld said @ 9:09pm GMT on 18th Aug
I disagree. That's looking at it from the standpoint that humans are not just animals. But seeing as how we really are animals, and not plants, fungi or protozoans, it is quite absurd. This language convention is something I object to on philosophical grounds.

The notion that we as a species are somehow different is invalid in the sense that we are just as different from other species as any species is different from other species. We may think that our capacity for reasoning sets us apart from other species. But that is judging species by our standards, and who is to say that is the right standard? The sprint of the cheetahs sets them apart by their standards, and so on. We humans are one particular kind of animal, no more or less remarkable than others. I personally think most all animals are pretty damn remarkable, including humans. There certainly is nothing wrong with being an animal.

I believe it would be better for us if we would accept that we are just the same as other species on this planet, but I harbour no illusion that we ever will. Group formation and certain rejection of "other" is a survival mechanism that is a part of most all species, including ours. However regrettable that state may be when evolution has also furnished us with capacity for reasoning, enabling us to potentially see that we aren't as outstandingly interesting as we'd like to think we are.

Milkman666 said @ 10:04pm GMT on 18th Aug
"We may think that our capacity for reasoning sets us apart from other species. But that is judging species by our standards, and who is to say that is the right standard?"

We'll have to pose that question to something that has the capacity to reason... Yes the Homo Sapien in the back row with his hand up.

He says we should go for it.

Skuld said @ 10:10pm GMT on 18th Aug
Well, this here specimen of Homo sapiens disagrees. I'd like to nominate tradigrades as a more awesome collection of living beings. Freeze them, desiccate them, then thaw and rehydrate. They're fine, doesn't really ruin their lives. Do that to a human and all you've got is a very mushy and icky mummy.

sanepride said @ 4:22pm GMT on 17th Aug
I'm hitting the Haaretz paywall on your main link. Got the full text?

b said @ 4:58pm GMT on 17th Aug
Me too.

spazm said @ 5:37pm GMT on 17th Aug
Huh, whaddayaknow. I wanted to copy pasta it but now I can't view it for free either.

theRed said @ 6:07pm GMT on 17th Aug

The full text is available for subscribers & registered users.
Click here to subscribe ($1 for the first 4 weeks)
register (free access for 10 stories a month) or login

sanepride said @ 6:30pm GMT on 17th Aug [Score:1 Informative]
Um, yeah I got that.
I think it's sort of unwritten policy here that posted articles should be available and readable to anyone without having to register or subscribe (even for free).
If you have access do a brother a favor and paste the article here.

Skuld said @ 8:54pm GMT on 17th Aug
I clicked the link shortly after it was posted, and then the article was open,

spazm said @ 10:03pm GMT on 17th Aug
Exactly. I think these guys noticed the jump in visitors and decided to make it a closed article to try and get more subscribers. That's enough reason for me to not subscribe.

sanepride said @ 10:22pm GMT on 17th Aug [Score:2 Funny]
There's an ethnic stereotype in there somewhere.
Where's Mel Gibson when you really need him?

spazm said @ 10:27pm GMT on 17th Aug
Yeah I didn't want to put my finger on it right away, but yes.

bruceski said @ 6:17pm GMT on 17th Aug
What bugs me about these kinds of stories is that it's always reported as religions attacking nationalities. Jews attacking Palestinians, Muslims hating Americans, Christians attacking gays. Report things on the same scope, here, otherwise it makes these things perceived as a lot more universal than they are.

bruceski said @ 6:18pm GMT on 17th Aug
Ok, what REALLY bugs me is that these things happen at all. The unbalanced summarizing is a close second.

sanepride said @ 6:59pm GMT on 17th Aug
OK, without access to the article I can only speculate about what happened here. What made this incident a 'lynch'? Were the Palestinians hung? Were any of them killed? Sorry about the semantics but here in the US, where lynching was once a pastime, we're mighty particular about how that term is tossed around.
To be sure, this sounds like an awful, hateful incident, but I'm not really clear what makes it distinctive from the hateful violence that occurs on a daily basis in Israel and the Occupied Territories, not just between Jews and Arabs but between ultra-orthodox Jews and less-than-ultra-orthodox Jews.

Anti-fuites said @ 7:43pm GMT on 17th Aug
I believe lynch was just the word used by the witness who posted on facebook so the news is running with it. And while certainly it's most common usage, lynch doesn't necessarily have to mean a hanging.

sanepride said @ 8:20pm GMT on 17th Aug
True, but it would generally refer to some kind of vigilante or mob action against a person or persons accused of some misdeed. This sounds like just a general hate crime, which as I said is pretty much a given in this region. Maybe it's notable because it happened in Jerusalem, where generally people manage to co-exist without too much trouble.
Interesting use of terminology here though, describing the incident as a 'lynch' where we would say a 'lynching' and/or 'lynch mob'. Obviously the witness and writer are not up on the English colloquialism.

iosef said @ 2:26am GMT on 18th Aug
it's actually only jerusalem where shit like this can plausibly happen within Israel. Jerusalem is filled with batshit crazy fundamentalists. They teach their kids that the life of an Arab (or any gentile) is completely worthless; this is the inevitable result. In the rest of Israel, where the culture is largely secular, even the most racist POS dirtbag would still not dream of attacking someone in a public place in an unprovoked fashion.

The fundamentalists have a disproportionately large influence on Israeli politics, unfortunately. The problem is only going to get worse since they consistently outbreed the secular population. Once they get a grip on the Supreme Court... *shudders* let's just hope it never happens.

GordonGuano said @ 10:03am GMT on 18th Aug
There really should be a secular equivalent of the Quiverfull ministry, since we know that sensible population control measures get folks as riled up as gun control proposals.

chold_numa said @ 3:30pm GMT on 18th Aug
Evolution doesn't make sustainable choices, only ones that let you pass on your genes. Religious thinking which helps your "tribe" create more members and encourages you to wipe out other tribes is to your advantage from an evolutionary standpoint. Presumably, some, if not most of your ancestors had this gene/set of genes that inclined them to religious thinking (or reasonable facsimile thereof).

Secular, scientific thinking is really new by comparison and doesn't preference your own genes over anyone else's. Long term thinking (beyond the next 10 years or so) generally doesn't take precedence over thinking about your immediate needs (food, sex, shelter) as the ancestors who preferences this sort of thinking over the others starved/didn't breed/froze to death instead. That's why things like sustainability, recycling, global warming, are badly understood and argued about, and why the Internet is full of porn.

RhesusMonkey said @ 12:19pm GMT on 18th Aug
Smart people need to breed more. Israel also needs to stop paying for people to read the Torah all day. A number of Israelis I've worked with who have strong engineering backgrounds have a number of children (4+) and plan for more, so I guess that is hopeful?

For people who have yet to visit, Tel Aviv is awesome; Eilat is awesome; Old Jerusalem is shit, except for the antiquity and architecture. Haifa is also nice for the same antiquity / architecture.

And the cats, ZOMG the cats. They are everywhere. Like Pigeons in New York.

sanepride said @ 5:27am GMT on 19th Aug
I found the old city of Jerusalem to be a weirdly captivating and magical place. Very intense vibe. And indeed, in a very small area it's amazing to see ultra-orthodox Jews, Muslims, and Christians living in such close proximity, crossing paths every day, and generally getting along, or at least tolerating each other.

RhesusMonkey said @ 12:12pm GMT on 18th Aug
we've had enough of your anti-semantic attitudes around here...

rangerx said @ 7:26pm GMT on 17th Aug [Score:5]
Text found elsewhere:

spazm said @ 12:18am GMT on 18th Aug
Let's keep this at the top of the comments section for information's sake.

atter_cob said @ 7:27pm GMT on 17th Aug
I hit a pay wall.

Ankylosaur said @ 10:39pm GMT on 17th Aug
I'd hit a pay wall.

Sexy pay walls.

kichijoii said @ 7:34pm GMT on 17th Aug [Score:1 Informative]
Alternate site

Not a literal lynching, but an alleged beating to death motivated by anti-Arab sentiment. Quoted reaction afterward might be more gut-wrenching than the actual act.

sanepride said @ 8:22pm GMT on 17th Aug
Thx, only no 'beating to death'. Of the three Palestinian youths attacked, one was "seriously wounded and hospitalized in intensive care".

pleaides said @ 12:20am GMT on 18th Aug
Sorry about the paywall guys, I had no such issue and by the time it had come up here I'd gone to bed. Thanks to rangerx and kichijoii for providing the text :)