Sensible Erection | ASK SE: I have a good friend who has limited marketable skills.

Friday, 27 January 2012

ASK SE: I have a good friend who has limited marketable skills.

quote [ Place-holder link, didnt read. ]

I want to help a good friend into a better job. HS diploma, 2 yr college. Has been waiting tables and is becoming more and more depressed as time goes on. I'm re-writing his resume and aiming towards a telesales or sales path for him. Any advice?

*Edit* He's a 30ish quasi-hipster in Oklahoma City, OK, USA

Thanks everyone for so many good ideas. I'm amazed and grateful. Kudos to SE!

[by RedRiverRat@8:03amGMT] [+9 Underrated]

Comments

b said @ 8:10am GMT on 27th Jan
Um, you think being a telemarketer or salesperson is going to be less depressing than waiting tables?

Tell the guy to find a trade. Start looking for plumbers, carpenters, electricians, etc. that are willing to take on an apprentice. Some schools even offer programs that work in conjunction with work experience so that you spend some time in the field and some time in the classroom.

Either way, it's a bit of a long trek, but eventually you've basically written your own ticket. I was seriously considering going up north where ticketed gas fitters and other trades can easily make upwards of $80/hr.

Something to think about. In the end it wasn't for me, as I wasn't happy being the bitch and relegated to all of the shittiest tasks (lots of carrying stuff and other jobs the other plumbers didn't want to do), and it was probably because as a 35 year old man I didn't enjoy being treated like a high school kid. Well, it wasn't that bad. It just wasn't the job for me, in the end.

RedRiverRat said @ 9:14am GMT on 27th Jan
My friend would share that concern, he's 31

v0idmagus said @ 4:51pm GMT on 27th Jan
He may...but what is harsher on the ego, being 40 and trying to live by being mediocre at sales, still waiting tables, or sucking it up for a few years to learn something he doesn't know then making bank by even being average at a skilled trade?

Sure, being a plumber doesn't sound cool to the ladies (except for the ladies with plumbing trouble), but making $30/hr + can make up for it.

Maybe he can go full-hipster and embrace the irony of being salt of the earth?

Personally, I frequently wish I'd gone into HVAC repair or electrician. A simpler job (simpler than software architecture, anyway) and maybe I wouldn't have migraines so often.

RailRoader said @ 3:08pm GMT on 27th Jan
HVAC is hot hot hot right now. Everyone needs heat and AC.

tiemy said @ 11:57pm GMT on 27th Jan
get ready for $10/hour

sacrelicious said @ 8:11am GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Underrated]
please always consider Glengarry Glen Ross beofore recommending anyone go into a sales career. severity will vary, but a the heart of it it's always this kind of thing:

KingPellinore said @ 12:10pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:2 Funny]

RedRiverRat said @ 8:31am GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Interesting]
While I'm sure you are well-meaning,

I find it a little insulting seeing as that I am a salesman and sales manager, and a successful one. I have done it for 15 years. I've used that Glengarry Baldwin speech as presentation when my team gets 'oh poor me'

There are serious drawbacks to a life in sales, pressure, goals and pace. BUT it is also a career field where you can make very good money if it suits you, without a degree.

Specifically to b: read this:The 6 Stupidest Things We Use to Judge People We Don't Know

I'm have my degree, I hold a license as a Mortgage Loan Officer, I hold a license to sell insurance, I am a certified and traveled field landman.

I would have suggested trade to him if he had the inclination or desire to do that sort of work. I didnt just say, hey fuck-it, sales.

sacrelicious said @ 8:36am GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Insightful]
so basically you're the Kevin Spacey character.

RedRiverRat said @ 8:55am GMT on 27th Jan
No, Im Baldwin.

"I'm here from Mitch and Murray and I'm here on a mission of mercy.'

No salesman would ever say different.

KingPellinore said @ 12:57pm GMT on 27th Jan
Dude, that would have been the perfect time to make a "...and these are my big brass balls." comment.

lalanda said @ 1:06pm GMT on 27th Jan
You know that film is a criticism and not a text book, right?

KingPellinore said @ 1:21pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:2 Funny]
Great. Next you're gonna tell me I shouldn't be running this underground fighting club...

themanwhoeatslettus said @ 4:36pm GMT on 27th Jan
Keep doing that just stop selling life insurance at it.

endopol said @ 6:33pm GMT on 27th Jan
I've heard that soldiers get pumped up for war watching The Deer Hunter and Full Metal Jacket.

KingPellinore said @ 6:58pm GMT on 27th Jan

lalanda said @ 2:52pm GMT on 28th Jan
No disrespect to soldiers, but they're in such a shitstorm of psychological manipulation that the subtleties of film may be lost on them.

Sales people who get pumped up from GGR have forgotten their humanity.

EPT said @ 8:44pm GMT on 28th Jan
The Deer Hunter? It's so slow and tedious, how does that get anyone fiery for war? A 90-minute film squeezed into 3 hours...

papango said @ 8:42am GMT on 27th Jan
Sure, but is that what your friend wants? Does it suit him? What about being a waiter is making him depressed? If he doesn't like dealing with people, maybe he should look at other options.

RedRiverRat said @ 8:49am GMT on 27th Jan
Yes, we've talkled about it a lot. Ive told him pro/con. I even went more into con because my ultimate goal is to be able to employ him. The worst thing would be to have to fire him.

He likes people, the depression is more to do with his self-perceived status and income and advancement potential. He's got a great voice, is amazing at rapport, and has no issues at all in that area.

RedRiverRat said @ 8:46am GMT on 27th Jan
Watched that Glenngary again, love it.

Until I rewatched it, I didnt see the funny in the 15, Alec said that. Weird, 15 years ago I was working my first hardcore sales job pimping Sony Vaios B2B. You were nothing if you didnt invoice 160k a month. That was hard news to a newb but I enjoyed it.

It's a craft in a way. I read books out loud to myself and to my kids. I listen a lot and resay things I say all the time getting just the right inflection and tone.

Sales isn't magic or deception. It's sales. It what makes all the rest be possible. Bleeding edge of profit.

EPT said @ 9:01am GMT on 27th Jan [Score:5 Insightful]
It what makes all the rest be possible.

I hate this bullshit line that spouted to make it seem that sales are the essential job. In this day and age, pretty much every job is essential to the 'possible', right down to the receptionist at the front desk. Sales is important. So is Finance. So is Manufacturing, Support, Marketing, and the rest. Fire all your cleaning staff and see how productive everyone is after that. Economic rationalism has killed off the unnecessary jobs.

RedRiverRat said @ 9:08am GMT on 27th Jan
Agreed. I retract that bit.

bltrocker said @ 3:17pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Insightful]
"Sales isn't magic or deception."

Please forward this message to every salesperson over the age of 15 that I've ever had to deal with - especially those selling cars, large appliances, and computers. I would like them to stop attempting to deceive me.

valen85 said @ 12:04am GMT on 28th Jan
Before you buy something, get educated on what you're buying. Then you won't be deceived as easily.

bltrocker said @ 12:34am GMT on 28th Jan
If I weren't educated, I wouldn't know it was deception. I would just be another satisfied customer.

b said @ 10:43am GMT on 27th Jan
Well, I didn't mean to be insulting but when you throw "telesales" into the same sentence as "sales", it doesn't cast sales in general in a favourable light. I mean, most telemarketing is pretty morally ambiguous to begin with. When your business model consists of phoning up old people and bilking them of their savings, I don't really consider it a worthy career path unless you're a piece of shit to begin with.

And all those high pressure fuckers in electronics and car sales and that can be pretty dickish too. Sales has a reputation for a reason.

Obviously there's probably plenty of good salesmen who sell products to people that are looking for them, you being one of them.

Anyway, you didn't really specify what kind of sales, so I made a little joke. I didn't realize it was a sensitive subject.

b said @ 10:44am GMT on 27th Jan
Oh, also I wasn't judging you or your friend, just your vocation.

lilmookieesquire said @ 3:34pm GMT on 27th Jan
Your own vocation is?

lilmookieesquire said @ 5:40pm GMT on 27th Jan
I ask, because if you insulted whatever job I chose to do, I'd call you a shitbag. RRR seems to have demurred.

People need money to live in society. If he was selling meth to school children, insult his profession.

Being a salesman is no more evil than being a consultant/lawyer/plumber/accountant.

b said @ 7:31pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Informative]
Relax guys, relax. I'm jus joking around.

For the record I'm a full-time social worker and I moonlight as a bike messenger 3 or 4 times a month. Insult away, because I've heard it all.

KingPellinore said @ 7:35pm GMT on 27th Jan
Yes, I imagine you have heard, "Hypocritical jerkass" a time or two.

b said @ 6:30am GMT on 28th Jan
No, it's usually "fucking goof".

bruceski said @ 8:30pm GMT on 27th Jan
ooo, do not tell people you're a bike messenger in my town (Portland). We've got a big ol' bike/car/pedestrian turf war going on and it seems that most of the escalation centers around messengers and the people emulating them. Ignoring traffic laws, missing people/cars by inches, basically treating the city as if it were New York and their backpack was going to explode if they lost a few seconds. It's a few bad apples in a decent bunch but those apples are bitter enough to make anyone spit.

b said @ 8:39pm GMT on 27th Jan
Same thing is happening here in Vancouver. Our Mayor is "greening" the city, putting in bike lanes that are pissing drivers off. And yeah, there's also the whole pedestrian/driver/cyclist war.

foobar said @ 10:08pm GMT on 27th Jan
It's pissing off more than just drivers. Those bike lanes slow down public transit, too. There's also Critical Ass making everyone hate cyclists.

b said @ 1:28am GMT on 28th Jan [Score:2 Insightful]
Hell, I'm a non-car owning, cycle everywhere guy and even I hate Critical Mass. They give cyclists a worse name than messengers do. At least most messengers are skilled traffic cyclists. Too many boobs (not the good kind) wobbling around in critical mass with costumes and tall bikes, if you ask me.

lilmookieesquire said @ 1:52am GMT on 28th Jan
OK OK. If it's a joke it's fine. It's one of my pet-peeves. I know people that have made that same comment seriously, so I tend to come out swinging blind. :p

lalanda said @ 8:34pm GMT on 27th Jan
Ridiculous. It is possible to do a job in an environment that has a low standard of ethics and not defend it. We're not all in denial mainly because we don't all base our self-esteem on what we do for money.

It's like saying someone who works for a tobacco company can't deplore the tobacco industry. People make ethical choices in what they do. Either they do them and don't defend the practice, or they don't do them. Ethics is not a luxury, no matter how you try to paint it.

lilmookieesquire said @ 12:35am GMT on 28th Jan
I agree with you in that my point was more that a job doesn't (by default) make you evil/immoral.

There are people that are corrupt in NPOs and there are salesmen etc that help people out.

It's the person makes the job I guess.

RedRiverRat said @ 11:41am GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Informative]
It's a sensitive topic because of the perception you illustrated.

I separated sales from telesales for a reason.

It's all'sales' but how it is done is wildly different.

Even in the supposedly narrowed telesales. There are inbound and outbound categories: ie, Outbound, those who cold call numbers all day and rely on sheer numbers to get a percentage of sold-to-call. That can be abusive, and unless the company gives a shit and is vigilant, that kind of taking advantage of people can happen. I hate those people. But there are also ethical outbound sales companies.

Inbound call sales folk work by answering calls, usually generated by mass-mailings or advertising, the customer actually knows who you are and what you are doing before they choose to pick up a phone and call. Thats a presentation and pitch, if they don't commit circle back find out why, answer questions, get the money if it makes sense for them to do so. More call-to-close ratio pressure though.

Other sales are different too: There are inbound and outbound there too.

Outbounders usually get a territory and a list of zipcodes and are told to go forth and prosper. Usually on a 80-100% commission basis. They roam around knocking on doors and wandering into offices trying to find the person who can write a check or charge a card. Feel sorry for them. That gig sucks.

Inbounders can be broken further. Everything from car salesmen to people who visit by appointment. I tried car sales once and hated it. Thats miserable. And there are a lot of tricks involved, well-thought out manipulation techniques. It's also Alpha dog land. There is always some guy who grew up in the town and is best friends with everyone and gets all the money. Same with insurance. Havent done it, heard stories. OR, you could be in, example mortgages, and visit people in their homes by appointment and work with them to find the best option for them. That is all about being professional, friendly and comfortable. (not as easy as it was to type) - downside is you better love driving.

I cant go on much more. I could, but not tonight. So I'll leave you with this, I worked for Dell for several years in the SMB (Small/Medium Business) group. Years ago it was a great job, the corp mantra was take care of people, do the right thing, sell them what they will need tomorrow. It was good. At some point the corp philosophy changed, in my opinion, to sell them every goddamn thing you can. then they started cutting whole departments and sending the jobs to the philippines. Was a day when 20% of sales was laid-off. I was still in but I polished my resume and started shooting it at everything that wrote checks. Quit as soon as possible. Glad I did, got a call from a guy I worked with who said that everyone on that team got served walking papers.

As far as high pressure in electronics/retail/clothing goes. they aren't predatory, they have to. That's their job. A lot of people aren't trained properly and just go for the kill, buy the big one. But most really have no choice but to go to anyone who is interested and offer help/advice/bullshit. The work for less guaranteed money and a commission.

I can't really give detail about where I work now, too many know I live in OKC and the firm Im with is 1 of 4 in the industry here. Might as well post my work number and name.

thanks b.

theolypse said @ 7:48pm GMT on 27th Jan
Inbound also includes people who are pretty bluntly deceived on what they're being upsold at the end of a marginally-related call to another company.

b said @ 8:12pm GMT on 27th Jan
Okay, okay. I apologize. Obviously I don't know the ins and outs of the industry and I was mostly trying to be lighthearted about the whole thing. Sometimes it's hard to make a joke on the internets come through in the spirit it was intended.

I know that not all sales jobs or sales people are rotten. I know this. I'm sorry I tried to joke around and apparently offended you and everyone else reading this thread.

Unfortunately my exposure and experiences with sales and salespeople has tended towards the negative end of the spectrum, something reinforced by entertainment and it's heavy handed use of stereotypes.

Let's just roll back the clock and you can ignore that I said anything stupid and hopefully take my original comments about trades in the spirit in which they were given.

bruceski said @ 8:25pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:2 Insightful]
There's a comment I've heard from a lawyer friend that I think is appropriate. "It may be your first time saying it, but it's not our first time hearing it."

RedRiverRat said @ 3:54am GMT on 28th Jan
The real nightmare sales job is furniture sales. When you go in and see tons of people waiting to swoop in on you and start selling tt's because they are on 100% commission. No sale, no pay. The stores load em up, pay them nothing but a percentage. It's fucking brutal.

Anything that is 100% commission tends to have a higher percentage of assholery because it's the only way the salesperson can make money to pay the bills. And just because the company isn't really paying you don't think they can't be absolute dicks to the salespeople. Enforcing long hours, strict dress-codes, sky's the limit on being a douche when you have no real investment.

You do need brass balls and tough skin to sell. It's not for everyone. and something I should consider more when thinking to help a buddy. Lotsa food for thought in this from everyone.

I'm wondering if I should just have him read this thread and think about it....

GordonGuano said @ 3:48pm GMT on 27th Jan
+1 for the John Cheese article. Better for you than a stack of self-help books.

RedRiverRat said @ 9:07am GMT on 27th Jan
Not to mention that Glengary is an extreme example, also Boiler Room, etc.

It's not always like that. My office is fairly laid back. Numbers count and I foster a competitive attitude. But thats the nature of the beast. I don't deal in threats and like a good baseball manager I know that good people can slump.

I've worked in some high-pressure places and when you ramp it up that high the best leave, the mediocre get broken and the tolerable either quit or get fired.

The perception of a well run sales office is colored by people who have never had to pitch and ask for money. When I show Glenngary, a few times in a long time, it wasnt to scare, but to shake people out of 'oh the economy sucks, we cant sell anything' or 'our competitors are beating the shit out of us' whatever. It always has worked into a team build.

Afterwards, back to work followed by a round or two on me at the pub o choice.

bruceski said @ 9:43am GMT on 27th Jan
One thing I'm curious about, as far as a competitive attitude do you do it by individual or by team? One thing I've seen in school classes graded on a curve is that once people become aware of the system it disincentivises helping others advance unless you gain some benefit or they're seen as some sort of familial-esque bond. I haven't a clue how that fares for the boss but it's a hostile atmosphere to work in, and sales in particular gets depicted that way in media; making sure the other guy doesn't get the sale's almost as important as getting it yourself.

RedRiverRat said @ 10:43am GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Insightful]
I've seen and used two models. The individual reward system and the team reward system.

Before that though, the culture of people who are in sales is inherently competitive, everyone wants to be #1 and in most cases the rewards for the being the best are significant.

Sniping or poaching sales is, to say the least, frowned on, and people who do it soon learn it won't work.

For one, if there is a grief than I can just reassign sales credit to the original rep. If it happens more than accidentally, the team polices itself and that person is gonna soon see all his deals fall apart as the entire team, working individually goes after the offenders deals.
It is a misconception usually. Unless you are in a position of real authority you cant work like that, most teams Ive been in or with usually share info a lot. Strategies, verbiage, news articles in support, shared scripting. I'll lock down half a day for no sales and grab a conference room say, 'so what's working?' and let them riff.

The 2 models Ive seen or used.

The usual method is #1 guy gets this, 2 gets. 3 gets. etc, company-rank sales reward, office best reward. That sort of thing. I still take calls and sell a lot but I put my deals on the whiteboard and write, "next person to close gets this one too'

That works. It can put people on an island though.

The other method is the pure team approach - set a team goal and a bonus. every month. I've never used it as a manager but worked it as a salesman. If the goal is met, everyone bonuses, if you exceed goal then you get more money by targeted increments. Example: team goal is 80k for the month. (15 reps) meet the goal everyone gets 2k bonus check. Hit 90k, everyone gets 2200, etc. If you dont meet goal. No one gets a bonus.

It made for a lot of long days at the end of every month. Putting in 70 hour weeks to hit target or tier up. BUT you never wanted to be at the lowest part of that totem pole. If target was missed and you had the least, everyone else was pissed at you. It can work and the management was smart enough to make a target that was hard enough that we had to work our asses off but only once in 2 years did we not hit goal. But it chewed people up. Some couldnt cope with it.

I use a fairly laid back style, I have ears on all the time. I could tell you at any given second who is doing what. Sams on a pitch, Leo is trying to go close, etc, But I don't beat 'em. Ive had to let people go because they just couldnt do the job either because they didnt have the skill needed or were shy about just asking and expecting a stranger to give them money, whatever. That part of the job is fun for no-one.

My structure is team and individual. I reward the best performers and also set a team goal. If the team goal is met everyone gets a small bonus. The top 5 in the office get rewarded, the bottom 5 get to have me sit with them and listen and offer help/advice or even take over if they get lost with credit to them.

We use a lot of scripting because legally there are things we can and cannot say, but I have, 'what's working' meetings every friday. just roundtable, share stories bullshit time.

Everyone has the same lunch time and we often go out to a local place and eat. If a newer person dosent get it or seems to be feeling excluded, I make sure to invite.

Respect goes a long way. I can be a hard-ass and nobody wants me pissed off, but I dont go around threatning. If you truly fuck up or cant hack it. You're fired. No drama.

So, sale theft is not an issue, it's easy to track and if you do it to often, I'll tell that person to knock that shit off. If it continues I'll give the team a chance to revenge fuck his deals for a while (it brings them together and enforces the 'that shit isnt tolerated', and if the sorry bastard does anything but apologize and do the right thing I'll let him/her go.

Secondly, Salespeople are competitive. You almost have to be. I can't look at any ranking system with my name on it and be satisfied if I'm not at the top of that list. (Hence my hatred of online gaming, because I suck at it and it drives me bugshit to see it in a rank sheet)

3rd. Get good people treat them right and listen to what they say. Dont go overboard praising someone who has a great day or month and dont go overboard beating on someone who has had a bad day or month.

Strange thing about sales... when you first start, you get a lot of deals. Because you dont know anything. You just do the training stuff. Then later, when you've heard a lot, there is a tendency to qualify people. 'This guy isnt gonna buy, Im fucked' and you have countered so many arguments that you figure that based on a single question they will ask these 5 others too. So you try to answer them all at once. Just puking sales shit on some person. The best have great vocal skills, tone, inflection, the way to say and the ability to forget everything that happened before the person who you're talking to started speaking. Every time, wipe the board, clean slate.

wow, this was longer than I thought it would be, hope it helped.

weevilgenius said @ 6:08pm GMT on 27th Jan
I would be interested in your thoughts on this article: Why do we pay sales commissions? which questions the underlying assumptions about the sales commission system.

I am neither very competitive nor do I work in sales, so it's just curiosity on my part.

lilmookieesquire said @ 6:44pm GMT on 27th Jan
Totally valid, but the same thing happens all over- consulting, project managers, bankers...

sacrelicious said @ 7:47pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:3]
you pay a salesperson a salary to guide the customer to the product that best fits his or her particular needs.

you pay a salesperson a commission to push a product without consideration to the customer's needs.

GordonGuano said @ 7:54pm GMT on 27th Jan
This. So fucking this.

incpenners said @ 11:57pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Underrated]
Are there corrupt sales people? Yes. Are there corrupt people in other professions? Yes.

In the majority of my experience with inside and outside sales, commissioned salespeople are on the hook for educating customers, writing contracts, arranging delivery internally, overseeing the delivery, installation, training, after-sale issues and ongoing maintenance. As in any job (take for instance, waiting tables) there's a whole raft of people who can screw up any part of the process and cost the person the sale.

So where you might perceive the sales person to be hyper-critical or focused only on the sale, you need to realize that they're managing a sometimes giant process that, in the end, affects their ability to eat.

No doubt there are some sales jobs where commissioned sales people can and do fuck people over.

Every competent sales person I know talks about the ongoing relationship (repeat business), not the sale.

RedRiverRat said @ 9:10am GMT on 27th Jan
So, if any of you would care for the advice part, it would be appreciated. Better that than argue pointlessly over the relative merits of sales.

schatten00777 said @ 10:11am GMT on 27th Jan
So what you really want is advice on how to write a resume? Go looks at the various hundreds of thousands of templates out there. Use action verbs. Highlight person skills and responsibilities. Sell yourself. This is really a no-brainer, especially for someone who is in sales.

On the other hand, if you're actually looking for some advice on getting your friend a job rather than how to write a resume, seriously look at trade work. I'm not going to knock sales, mostly because I can see how strongly you feel about it. But trade work is (mostly) reliable, high paying, and offers a much better opportunity to work for yourself once you gain enough skills and connections. Don't ignore it.

Bodnoirbabe said @ 9:40am GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Informative]
I'm not sure where you live, but have him look into the local utilities, especially if they're union. A lot of them hire with only a HS diploma and will train to put you in whatever position they need. From there, he should be able to further himself in the company.

incpenners said @ 12:00am GMT on 28th Jan [Score:1 Informative]
Comcast and ATT hire competent 'handyman' types for installer jobs. Depending on ability these can pay really well. Those companies also hire subcontractors who in turn hire contractors and employees.

chold_numa said @ 10:25am GMT on 27th Jan
Your friend needs to stop being depressed, which is easier said than done. When you're depressed your decision making is going to be somewhat compromised.

Anyway, onto some suggestions (which may or may not be useful) based on a few people I know who changed careers. One guy I know went from being an engineer to doing a Christian outreach program helping to rehabilitate juvinile criminals in Hong Kong. He didn't speak a word of Cantonese, but after 3 years came back to teach ESL/TEFOL.

Another person I know entered the Army Reserve during university, eventually enlisting in the Army proper. He became an officer after about 10 years.

The other person I know who made a drastic career change quit his accounting job to go to France to study at Le Cordon Bleu, finally becoming a pastry chef. He's now back to accountancy to get enough money to fund starting up his own business.

I guess the other thing your friend could do is get a job in shipping. It doesn't really require too many skills and you get to see the world (very slowly). It turns out a good part of it is ocean. Alternately, if he has money to spare for training learn to be an underwater welder. The pay is excellent (as the job is fairly hazardous). Another alternative is to come to Australia and get a fruit picking job. Not much of a career, but it is a different sort of experience which pays OK if you're fast.

chold_numa said @ 10:43am GMT on 27th Jan
I'll also tack on the story of Jim Penman, self made millionaire who started off mowing lawns in Melbourne and eventually growing a massive empire.

He eventually became a bit too greedy, but I guess you could advise your friend to skip that step.

ComposerNate said @ 11:36am GMT on 27th Jan
There are multiple opportunities for native English speakers to teach without credentials, especially throughout Asia. Japan seems the best spot to be respected and vastly overpaid. China will take absolutely anyone they can get. Tilt his resume and he should easily get a year contract abroad. Life as adventure, he won't have time to be depressed.

lilmookieesquire said @ 5:29pm GMT on 27th Jan
Actually, Japan has really cut down on what they pay ALTs for the past 8 or so years. You get some deal of respect, and if you are good, you can pick up private groups (which still pay well). I have a friend that makes about 40-50k there a year.

It's really good fr a 1-2 year stint and a lot of people go to China/Korea?HK/Taiwan from there.

It's a fun stint.

ComposerNate said @ 6:10pm GMT on 27th Jan
Do you know of anywhere in the world which currently pays native speaking English or German teachers better than Japan?

lilmookieesquire said @ 6:25pm GMT on 27th Jan
Total amount, no, relative living standards, probably China, Vietnam, etc.

ComposerNate said @ 8:35pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Interesting]
We're thinking Taiwan, being ~10% vegetarian.

cb361 said @ 10:13pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Interesting]
That's what I heard about Mainland China - "Buddhism and vegetarianism are the new fad." Rubbish. I spent my first week there living on moon cakes (sweet lotus seed paste and hard boiled egg yolks) because all the vege food my gf kept ordering for me arrived with meat in it. Chinese chefs like to add meat to vegetarian dishes to make them not just vegetarian, but even better.

Okay, I'm being unfair. The stir fried vegetables were vegetarian, but I just don't like stir-fry the traditional way. A plate of hot oily celery and another plate of hot oily Chinese leaf. And some rice. If you're thinking of spending a lot of time in China/Taiwan, please make sure that you like Chinese food the way the Chinese cook it, not just the way we cook it in the West.

ComposerNate said @ 11:06pm GMT on 27th Jan
I was told the vegetarianism in Taiwan was Buddhist-influenced, so would expect it to be more respected, and also oddly without onions or garlic due to the strong flavor.
http://www.vegguide.org/region/40

lilmookieesquire said @ 1:53am GMT on 28th Jan [Score:1 Good]
I can ask my GF if she, or any of her friends, knows anything about vegetarians in Taiwan (she grew up there).

kimbo said @ 1:26am GMT on 28th Jan
A lot of chinese 'vegetarianism' isn't the same as western 'vegetarianism'.

I have chinese mates who are allowed to eat shellfish, birds (but not chicken), and certain other critters - it's not a blanket 'don't eat animals' like it is in the west.

It's a religious/cultural thing. Which means, don't look for logic in it.

spite48 said @ 12:19pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Interesting]
I'm not sure whether you intend for sales to be a short term or long term solution to the problem, but it may be neither. If he's depressed, and has self confidence problems, failing to meet sales targets might be a serious problem if he isn't suited for it. Does he possess those winning characteristics necessary for sales?

Sounds like a short series of career counselling sessions, or career transition course might help. Your friend needs to find a career that will suit them, be satisfying, enjoyable and suit their skill set. Sometimes people need help identifying those factors, and career counsellors have resources to identify and match current employment trends with a clients qualifications.

ComposerNate said @ 1:09pm GMT on 27th Jan
He should also consider not being a 30ish quasi-hipster.

spite48 said @ 1:17pm GMT on 27th Jan
You're suggesting a full hipster conversion?

ComposerNate said @ 1:21pm GMT on 27th Jan
Squish him with another quasi-hipster and get a semi-dependable person.

Croatia said @ 1:17pm GMT on 27th Jan
Advice : 1) Move out of Oklahoma City. I'm not trying to be an ass here, but Oklahoma is a fucked state for most types of modern people to try to live in. I'm from Tennessee, and my trip through Oklahoma made the Southeast look like paradise.

2) See if the guy cant get hired in the National Parks system. You're already out west after all.

At the end of the day, a radical change of place is going to help your buddy out the most.

themanwhoeatslettus said @ 4:40pm GMT on 27th Jan
Agreed! Moving out of Kansas was the best thing for me. let his inner hipster free in the north west. I also used to live in Edmond and it is just as bad as anywhere else in the area. Being happy not making it is better than not making it and killing yourself trying.

pleaides said @ 1:26pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:2 Interesting]
IS this person good with his hands? Get him into some tradesperson work!

I fucked up an good start in academia with drugs, then started at a slipway working on boats. That was about 10 years ago. Now I run my own business as a specialist in the painting of boats, and goddamn if I didn't just spend the day with that film director James Cameron painting his boat before it goes off to the Mariana trench to launch a baby sub to go down about 30,000 feet for some new movie that I think is called 'Sphere'

My point is this; For some people the achievement of a physical task at the end of a working day is a big plus to the whole 'sense of achievement' thing. It's certainly better (imho) than having nothing to point at at the end of the day and say 'I did that". If the person under discussion is looking for something to get in to then steer him into something 'real', something that makes you sweat and think and achieve something tangible. It did the world of good for me, got me off the drugs, I'm making better money than many of my friends who finished their degrees, and I love it.

Anyway, I was called in to do a quote on a job today and it turned out to be a 200' ocean going ship. Instead the guy said 'when can you start, we've gotta sail by sunday night' so I mucked in with some paint and got into it. I had to answer some questions from 'the boss' who turned out to be a polite silver haired American gentleman who introduced himself as 'Jim' and we had a yarn about what he wanted done and got it all sorted out. After I resumed my painting one of the welders said to me 'do you know who that guy is?' I said 'You mean Jim?' he said 'yeah that's James Cameron, the Avatar guy'. I said 'holy fuck, really?'

Anyway, so I met James Cameron today, covered in paint on the deck of a boat at Garden Island on Sydney Harbour. He seems like a really nice guy. My wife is a cinefile so she was delirious with excitement, I took some photos of this baby sub that he's about to put on the bottom of the Mariana Trench that I'd be happy to post if anyone's interested. I'm working there all weekend.

DuncmanG said @ 3:15pm GMT on 27th Jan
They already made a movie version of Sphere.

It sucked.

No, it really sucked. The book is awesome. The movie... just don't. Would they try to make another one? I wouldn't put it past the movie industry, but I won't hold my breath.

mrklipp said @ 5:14pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Informative]
Huh, you are the first person I've ever run into that found the book even tolerable, much less good.

pleaides said @ 7:36am GMT on 28th Jan
I guessed wrong, as the word 'Sphere' was written on all sorts of things. Turns out it's most likely a deep water documentary.

tickaz said @ 4:51pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Underrated]
' he said 'yeah that's James Cameron, the Avatar guy'

The Avatar Guy? Seriously? Not "The Terminator Guy" or "The Aliens Guy?" or even the fucking "Titanic Guy"?

I don't blame him for not saying "The Abyss guy" though.

bruceski said @ 7:07pm GMT on 27th Jan
Nothing wrong with naming the last big hit rather than every big hit. It's most likely to be recognized by people who don't recognize James Cameron on sight.

cool_drool said @ 1:40pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1]
Screw it. He's 31. Encourage him to enlist in one of the armed services, get the $50K college fund, and take classes while he is doing his 4 year stint. When I was in, I knew people who completed a 4 year degree while they were serving on active duty. They used the college fund money to fund graduate schools after they got out. While you are in, you an do correspondence classes if there is not a learning annex on your base, the tests are administered by your CO, and they only cost about half the price of a normal credit hour.

As a benefit, he can also pick a MOS that complements whatever career he is considering. If that MOS isn't available, he can get on a wait list, or just not enlist. Either way, it can only benefit him to look into it.

clumsy_juggler said @ 2:11pm GMT on 27th Jan
I can second this suggestion. If you end up in a technical field is that you are working with state of the art equipment. Experience in the military also looks good on a resume. The other plus to military service is a steady paycheck, medical and dental while you pursue your hobbies(art,music,etc) or college/university degrees.

cb361 said @ 6:32pm GMT on 27th Jan
I've heard that the military is fine if it suits you, but depending on personality not everybody achieves their best in a very (obviously) regimented lifestyle. I know I wouldn't.

sanepride said @ 9:55pm GMT on 27th Jan

cb361 said @ 10:24pm GMT on 27th Jan

Reagletam said @ 2:03pm GMT on 27th Jan
i'm 31. i went to art school so i'm pretty much in the same position, except i've recently discovered a heart defect that forced me to drop a lot of the art thing and to work strictly for health insurance. (data entry, fuck yeah!) i'll tell you one thing, if you are near a college or university, get a job doing anything as full-time staff. maintenance, college bookstore, anything.

generally they have great benefits and after some time working there you are eligible to take a free class every semester. tuition remission is great and some schools will even let you go for a degree after several years. being in a learning environment is really great and harder to get depressed with new stuff going on and people your age and younger all around you.

good luck, i hope you at least have your health.

KingPellinore said @ 2:05pm GMT on 27th Jan
Good luck finding a college bookstore that isn't owned/leased by Barnes and Noble, Follett Higher Education, or the Nebraska Book Company...

Reagletam said @ 2:52pm GMT on 27th Jan
absolutely true and sad these days, but i worked at an independent college store for five years and it was the best job i've ever had.

KingPellinore said @ 2:57pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Funny]
I work for a company that makes labels for textbooks.

Which store did you work at? They may be a customer of ours.

lalanda said @ 3:10pm GMT on 27th Jan
For some reason I found this funny.

KingPellinore said @ 3:12pm GMT on 27th Jan
Probably my impeccable delivery and cadence.

TM said @ 2:04pm GMT on 27th Jan
Free advice is usually worth what you paid for it. That said:

*Suggest that your friend move to the nearest city with a medium or large university (I'd suggest Norman, or get down to Austin, TX). There are all kinds of jobs, some of them meaningful, to be had in larger college towns - particularly when classes aren't in session.

*You mentioned that your friend is outgoing, has a good voice, and quickly establishes rapport with people. Sounds to me like he could explore being a receptionist/front office staff for medical or psychological clinics, nonprofit organizations, community organizations, etc. Basically any place where people come in feeling uncomfortable or scared.

*Churches and private schools often look to hire people with grounds, maintenance, office or computer skills. They can't afford to pay much so it's not a long-term proposition, but in such places he would likely meet a large number of potential employers, and could build some relationships toward a better job.

*I hope your friend is reaching out to his network (other friends like yourself), and that you're not the only one assisting him. If he isn't, he should be. Friends who know you, and who have some idea what you can and can't do, are often a very good source for tips. But then you knew that or you wouldn't have asked SE.

YMMV. Good luck!

yevishere said @ 3:58pm GMT on 27th Jan
I will gave the same advice I give to everyone.
Your friend needs to meditate on what he wants to be in 10 years.
Then I recomend finishing 2 more year of college, a real college with a reputation to get a B.S. in what your friend wants to be in 10 years. If he wants to be a salesman get a degree in business administration. Something else, then get a degree in something else. Honestly 31 is not in the grave, he will have a B.S. in 32-33, then he will make considerably more money, and will be able to get a job when he gets out. It is really worth it. Its even more worth it to get an M.S., again if that is what it requires for his 10 year plan career. By that point he will be 34-35, and well on his way with 25 years of successful CAREER ahead of him with benefits and six figure average salary. Oh yea, and get the FUCK out of oklahoma, that place is a shithole.

a.talisan said @ 4:45pm GMT on 27th Jan
This is a nice picture to paint, but hinges on a few "do this, and this happens" that I have found out first hand are not sure things. Also, do not forget the problem of the debt load you have to undertake to get that education - if you finish your degree and can't find a job, you are in a worse place than you were to begin with.

yevishere said @ 5:19pm GMT on 27th Jan
That could be said about any choice in life. What is the cost of staying where he is now for five years? I recon its higher than college loans.

tickaz said @ 4:41pm GMT on 27th Jan
Well, I don't really have any advice, since I'm in a similar boat. I've dropped out of uni twice now, and back to full time work learning how to be a restaurant manager at a well known fast food restaurant starting with "M". Yeah, it sucks, but I'm gonna finish my certificates and hopefully save up enough money that in a couple years time i'll be able to move onto the next thing, most likely management of some description, with a buffer of money to cover my arse for a while.

And if I ever try uni for a third time, I am most definitely going to do it via correspondence rather than on-campus.

GordonGuano said @ 5:28pm GMT on 27th Jan
Best of luck with that. It was pretty similar to my plan until my mom had a fall and it turned out her retirement/disability strategy was "squat out 7 kids and at least one is bound to be an alienated workaholic with a sense of obligation". I don't resent supporting her, but I am a little angry and amused at myself for thinking I could make plans.

So really, I'm saying be frugal and bust ass, I want to see it work for somebody!

zenviper said @ 4:54pm GMT on 27th Jan
Is he proficient with a computer/internet?

Ideology pm me, I may have an idea......

zenviper said @ 4:54pm GMT on 27th Jan
If so* stupid autocorrect

yasha said @ 5:58pm GMT on 27th Jan
i suggest having your friend try to get a job at firelake grand casino. it's a very well run place, with a strong emphasis on sales to customers. specifically, you might consider having him get a job in the keno desk as that gives an opportunity for direct, individual sales (and tips!)

casinos are great entry level jobs for the unqualified and uncredentialled. there is significant room for advancement based purely on performance, and good casinos inculcate a relentless focus on creating customer satisfaction.

good luck!

sanepride said @ 6:59pm GMT on 27th Jan

cb361 said @ 10:20pm GMT on 27th Jan

chrisjvr said @ 7:13pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:5 Insightful]
If your friend has been waiting tables and is languishing there, do NOT push him into sales. He's already doing a lot of that kind of work already in a restaurant, and if he's not happy *there*, he'll have a hell of a time adjusting to a new, entry-level job in a similar field with much less direct social interaction.

Really, though, from the sound of it, a new job isn't going to be anything for him but a new job. It won't fix his problems. He's 31 and depressed with few marketable skills, and has been working in a job that he apparently hates or isn't very good at/isn't making good money at.

Encourage him to see some therapy. Not career therapy, just plain talk-to-me therapy. He never quite got off the ground, and he's gotta figure out what it is about himself that's keeping him down. New jobs, new careers, new skills, what have you -- that'll come after quite naturally.

In the meantime, get him to focus on keeping himself happy doing the things he enjoys, and to disconnect his life from his career. As long as the bills are getting paid, his job's working just fine as a job. Help him build his life outside of his employment until he finds he wants to recombine those things more effectively in the future.

krimz said @ 7:44pm GMT on 27th Jan
It's an interesting insight into other peoples' professional life. My social skills are less than optimal which makes job interviews pure torture for me so I've been thinking about starting up my own business to bypass that particular hurdle. Of course I may actually have to interact with other people (if I ever get any customers that is) but I'll tackle that problem when I run into it (Possibly with a handpuppet and by learning ventriloquism.)

lilmookieesquire said @ 11:17pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Interesting]
Let me know if you need a porn sampler/coffee monkey.

Eru said @ 11:59pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Funny]
I have an opening for a coffee sampler and a porn monkey.

sherlock said @ 11:40pm GMT on 27th Jan
If your social skills are bad now, working for yourself will only make them much worse. Take it from me, who's been there and done that -- it's a bad idea.

krimz said @ 8:13am GMT on 28th Jan
Yeah I figured, but I thought adding "Drove my own company into the ground" would look nice on my resume.

cb361 said @ 9:51am GMT on 28th Jan [Score:1 Funny]
Might look good if you're building underground trains.

kitten said @ 10:54pm GMT on 27th Jan [Score:1 Underrated]
I actually do this for a living. I am a vocational rehab specialist. PM me and I can run a report for him regarding choices.

lalanda said @ 12:16am GMT on 28th Jan
Please fix my girlfriend.

sua_sponte said @ 11:28pm GMT on 27th Jan
Tell him to join the Marines. More chances for non-combat overseas service and world travel (Marines guard U.S. embassies) and if he's got a college degree he can go in as an officer.

tiemy said @ 11:55pm GMT on 27th Jan
he has a 2 year degree (no commission) and is a quasi hipster in his 30s... why in gods name would you think the marines are an option

sanepride said @ 1:45am GMT on 28th Jan [Score:1 Funny]
irony.

tiemy said @ 12:05am GMT on 28th Jan
Not to be a debbie downer, but is he making money waiting tables? This is AMerica - there are a shit ton of people out there who would kill for the income that work can bring.

If he doesn't like the work (keeping in mind, almost no one LIKES their job), tell him to live frugally and save all his money while investigating longer-term education/training for a 'career' type job. And again keeping in mind this is America - even 'career' jobs can have way more applicants than positions/not all that great pay.

dangerm00se said @ 2:24am GMT on 28th Jan
Have you guys ever considered socializing the means of production?

mechanical contrivance said @ 4:00am GMT on 28th Jan
Can't. That would be socialism.

antares said @ 5:18am GMT on 28th Jan [Score:1 Interesting]
Doing motivation for long term unemployed people in Oz, I draw this on the board...

B___________N.......................D where B=born, N=Now, D=Die

You can't change anything in the B___N bit but unless you change something in the N.......D bit it will all be the same as it is now.

For most of this mob it was 'dole,dole,dole,pension,die'

Most of the peole we worked with changed something and a now in a different situation, mostly a better one.

Xazzax said @ 11:04pm GMT on 29th Jan
It may sound trite, but let Your friend look on the bright side:
>already HAVING a job is a good starting position as well as a reference in itself (you're doing something and being paid for it, therefore, you're employable...);
>there are plenty of jobs "out there" in the U.S. (as opposed to, for example, Poland);
>he has a friend who could, probably, teach him some basic sales, just to get him going with his job applications/interviews;
>having a B/M degree wouldn't guarantee a better job.

Then again, this is just my point of view.

WARNING: below.

I've a master degree in international studies (specialized in public diplomacy\international communication (think PR)), finished with high GPA and first award for the best master degree work in 2011.

I'm an experienced photographer, i've used to work at a factory; build, service and manage LAN/WLAN networks; build and prepare PCs; do private tech support and advice (in procurement of almost any modern tech); worked as a software beta-tester for a relatively big company (listed).

I know 5 languages, tho 3 of them are degrading due to disuse. I can also code in html, css, php(some) and java(a bit). I can use Samplitude, Photoshop, Premiere and Lightroom. I have a natural talent for technology, I've relatively good people-oriented skills and I'm able to learn to use any PC software/language exceedingly fast.

So, to justify all the not so interesting blah blah blah above: I still have trouble finding a job that wouldn't be "flippin burgers" or "stacking dildos". I know that in this country (Poland, Wroclaw), in these times, if I choose my first real, post-university job badly, i'll be stuck with it as a reference. Then again, if I remain unemployed for too long, THIS will become my reference. That is, being "not-employable". I hope there is something to be learned from the above - I'm not really old or experienced enough to offer anything else.

I can also say that work seems to often come from unexpected places. I've just landed a temporary job at a big company. I've learned about it from the same phone call that was meant to inform me that my application for another job offer was rejected.

Naruki said @ 12:57am GMT on 30th Jan [Score:-1 Troll]
Just a helpful tip: don't tell people you can code in HTML. Tell them you know it. CSS too, although the line is starting to blur a bit.

Xazzax said @ 7:57am GMT on 30th Jan
I'll keep this in mind, thanks. Could you elaborate why, though?

Naruki said @ 1:08am GMT on 31st Jan
Because HTML is a markup language, not a programming language.

keela said @ 3:33am GMT on 30th Jan [Score:1 Interesting]
It seems the problem is that your friend is suffering from a lack of skills. This is eminently fixable :)

For a number of reasons (including basic ethics, lack of ability to continue to increase skills/upskill, coming resource scarcity/economic meltdown + 3d printing, online customerisation and the interwebs making a perfect storm of salesmen being increasingly irrelevant), I'd suggest that sales may not be the way to go. Also, people generally hate it.

BUT! He should learn to code, at the very least. Programming skills will open hugely his world, and also mean that he's not geographically tied to work. Additionally, there's always work going, one can continue to upskill, etc etc.

Get him to check out Code Year - they're only three weeks into the year's lessons, and they're awesome! And when he signs up, he'll be able to do the previous week's work. http://www.codecademy.com/courses

If he's worried about time - I'm managing, and I have teh day job plus teh million mad things after work, and I'm managing. And it's well taught :)

Oh yeah: technical stuff including programming work not on the basis of where one studied, for example, or even IF one formally studied, but is instead done on the basis of what one can do, so it opens a bunch of doors, and doesn't cost tonnes to get mad skillz in :)