Friday, 19 September 2008

I just don't think we have any chemistry.

quote [ "Liberals will probably say conservatives are scaredy cats," while conservatives might call liberals naive, he says. "The more important point is that people differ." ]

Wouldn't be so bad if the average voter used the rest of their brain, besides just the lizard part. Even if you do your homework though in picking candidates there is always plenty of grey area, which is inevitably painted either black or white. Your blind spot, is your blind spot, because it is your blind spot.

Voting Republican may be a survival response

* 19:00 18 September 2008
* NewScientist.com news service
* Ewen Callaway


Depending on who you talk to, Sarah Palin is either a hard-talking breath of fresh air or a fear-mongering greenhorn. Now research suggests that such different reactions – and perhaps all political beliefs – might have a basis in biology.

"Traditionally, political scientists have focused on the environmental aspects: school, the media, the family, the church, as the things that lead to beliefs they have," says Douglas Oxley, a political scientist at the University of Nebraska, in Lincoln.

However, his team discovered that social conservatives react more strongly to shocking images and sudden noises by sweating more and blinking harder, compared to liberals. Such innate threat responses point to a biological, and perhaps genetic, basis for our politics, he says.

To uncover this trend, Oxley and Nebraska colleagues Kevin Smith and John Hibbing, quizzed 46 people on their political views, on topics ranging from the war in Iraq to capital punishment and premarital sex. All the participants had strongly held beliefs that identified them as socially liberal or socially conservative.

Two months after the survey, the researchers showed the subjects random pictures, while measuring how imperceptible changes in their perspiration affected skin conductivity.

When an image of a bloodied face or maggot-filled wound appeared, conservatives sweated more than liberals, even after accounting for differences that might be due to sex, income, age or education.
Fear reaction

The same trend held for blinking in response to a loud, random noise. Conservatives blinked a little bit harder than liberals, an innate response to a threat, Hibbing says.

This might be expected, based on the nature of the survey. Although political, the questions split people into socially protective and socially permissive groups. For the conservative views on issues like gun control and immigration, "these are all things that would help me stay safer with my social group", Hibbing says.

"Liberals will probably say conservatives are scaredy cats," while conservatives might call liberals naive, he says. "The more important point is that people differ".

Exactly why we differ is unclear, says Rose McDermott, a political psychologist at Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island.

"Where does this come from? Is it social? Is it genetic? Of course, it's not one or the other. The question is to look at the ways our biology interacts with the environment."
Pointless debate?

Oxley and Hibbing suspect that some genetic differences underlie our political leanings. Previous research has shown that certain mutations affect how a region of the brain called the amygdala reacts to fearful images.

Such innate differences might explain why convincing a staunch Democrat to vote Republican is almost impossible. And vice versa.

"When we have two talking heads screaming at each other, they're not going to convince each other of what they believe if they are pre-disposed to have those beliefs," Oxley says.

With six weeks of increasingly bitter presidential campaigning ahead, voters may start to weary of the rancour, but such deep-held convictions could serve an important role. "It's probably a positive thing if we have a mix of people who have beliefs in politics that are protective of society and also politics that are more risk-taking," he says.

Journal reference: Science (DOI: 10.1126/science.1157627)

Reminded me of this particular post.
http://www.sensibleerection.com/entry.php/72164


Ill toss this sucker in there as well since im already pimping New scientist.

http://technology.newscientist.com/article/mg19926746.200?DCMP=ILC-arttsfter&nsref=specbtm6_head_Software%20spots%20the%20spin%20in%20political%20speeches
[politics] [by Milkman666@4:32pmGMT] [+6 Interesting]

Comments

f00m@nB@r said @ 4:40pm GMT on 19th Sep
that may explain the whole preoccupation with guns for self-defense.
RoboRonnie said @ 4:45pm GMT on 19th Sep
I knew it was the conservatives that were the cowards!
Baxter_UK said @ 4:49pm GMT on 19th Sep
Comment Repost.
Milkman666 said @ 4:56pm GMT on 19th Sep
I guess Isosceles is going to find out whether or not his link would have made a good post.
Isosceles Lock™ said @ 5:34pm GMT on 19th Sep
I'll stick news bits and blogodrome over-linked stuff in comments, but save slightly more meaty (and arty) bits for posts.
wyckedfae said @ 4:59pm GMT on 19th Sep [Score:2 Insightful]
"The question is to look at the ways our biology interacts with the environment"

I hate this sentence.
f00m@nB@r said @ 5:00pm GMT on 19th Sep
why?
mrcookieface said @ 5:51pm GMT on 19th Sep [Score:2 Underrated]
Because it's a terrible sentence. It's a statement about posing a question that doesn't actually present in a question form.
wyckedfae said @ 5:58pm GMT on 19th Sep
Thanks.
HoZay said @ 7:27pm GMT on 19th Sep [Score:1 Funny]
Rarely is the question asked, is our children learning?
mrcookieface said @ 8:01pm GMT on 19th Sep
Sadly that qualifies as a better sentence than the one in question.
Raikva said @ 5:05pm GMT on 19th Sep
Wow. Just wow.
jaxtraw said @ 5:19pm GMT on 19th Sep
Oh, jesus christ. It's not so much the vacuity of the research as the desperate jumping to conclusions. There are all sorts of spoilers, varied explanations, and questions over the statistical validity of such a study anyway, but are we to take gun control as "socially permissive", or did a preference for it put those who favour it into the "socially protective" group (liberals are generally terrified of gun ownership and other people). Conservatives tend to believe in less safety regulation, greater freedom of individual action, less protection from the state. But they're in the "protective" group, are they, while those who call themselves liberals, who are terrified of environmental apocalypse, imaginary toxicity in food, and the shadowy nightmare of Big Corporations, and want all human action to be limited to only that granted by the state, they're in the permissive group are they? Could it just be that "conservatives" tend to expose themselves to less shocking imagery? Did they correct for that?

I mean come on. This is just politics dressed up as science. It's total bollocks.
dualscimitars said @ 5:28pm GMT on 19th Sep [Score:2 Underrated]
I love the way you frame that, douchebag.

Conservatives are afraid of dirty mexican illegals who are going to take their all their jobs, while robbing and raping them at the same time, they want to destroy harmless countries that pose no threat to them because of paranoid delusions of WMD's, and don't feel safe without a big gun in their hands.

See, I can frame a comment to make one side look like an unsavory, jittery, paranoid lot too.

Don't you have something better to be doing, like jacking off to Ayn Rand?
dualscimitars said @ 5:29pm GMT on 19th Sep [Score:1 Interesting]
To be clear, I don't believe there's any merit to this either, politics and reactions to graphic images I believe are far more driven by social factors than genetics.

I just take umbrage with your continued attempts to troll the left.
jaxtraw said @ 5:55pm GMT on 19th Sep
Well, watch the collectivists rushing to protect the group with bullhorn downmodding.
dualscimitars said @ 6:14pm GMT on 19th Sep
Hey, you baited them. I don't go into a church, make inflammatory statements about God, Jesus, or his followers and expect to be treated nicely.
Raikva said @ 6:23pm GMT on 19th Sep
Have they given up that 'Turn the other cheek' and 'Love thine enemy' stuff then? Shame.
dualscimitars said @ 6:34pm GMT on 19th Sep
I don't think they can give up something they never really practiced in the first place.
v0idmagus said @ 7:12pm GMT on 19th Sep
You do, however, go to a church to get into the pants of some cute choir girls.

Even though I'm not a liberal, I come to SE for the same reason. I'm fine keeping my mouth shut on my political views for the most part, for the sake of cute chicks.
revchoppy said @ 6:21pm GMT on 19th Sep
And watch the Randian Libertarian Cultists rush to defend a fellow follower of the flock with their upmods.
EPT said @ 1:48am GMT on 20th Sep [Score:3 Insightful]
*sigh*

Once again, you play the victim when you're clearly not. Even as I type this your original comment sits at +1. Why do you have such a victimisation complex?
f00m@nB@r said @ 1:50am GMT on 20th Sep
it's an essential part of his self-identity.
Baxter_UK said @ 5:59pm GMT on 19th Sep
Aha, I read this quickly and I thought you were saying "There's no merit to jacking off to Ayn Rand either ... "
jaxtraw said @ 5:36pm GMT on 19th Sep
Ha, I don't like Rand's writing at all, as it goes.

The point I was making is that the whole thing is perceived through a subjective filter. Which is the whole problem with the idea that there is such a thing as a "social science" which can ever produce objective results. The questions and classifications are based on the researchers' opinions of subjective concepts- what is "permissive" and what is "protective".

From a libertarian perspective, or this libertarian's at least, both conservatives and liberals (american definition) are social authoritarians who seek safety in the group. As it stands, much of american "conservatism" has at least a strand of libertarian thought- dislike of the nanny state etc- while "liberalism" has none detectable at all, so we should if anything expect the opposite correlation. Everybody seems to tribally collect in self-protective groups against dangerous outsiders- for the conservatives it might be immigrants, for the liberals it's, heh, conservatives, or the religious right, "the corporations", or even via their obesity hysteria- fat people etc. Pot, meet kettle.
revchoppy said @ 5:50pm GMT on 19th Sep
The point I was making is that the whole thing is perceived through a subjective filter

Much like the faux Libertarian filter through which you view the world.
jaxtraw said @ 5:56pm GMT on 19th Sep [Score:1 Good]
Indeed, we're all subjective. My only argument is against those who pretend their own skewed worldview is sufficiently objective that it can be imposed on all.
FifthSpango said @ 6:17pm GMT on 19th Sep
I actually really wanted to mod up your initial comment. Right up until the first bracket.

Was what came after that meant as an ironic illustration of your point?
revchoppy said @ 6:17pm GMT on 19th Sep
So then why do propose that very same thing?
f00m@nB@r said @ 6:26pm GMT on 19th Sep
so, you're subjective, but not biased? i suggest a refresher course in logic.
mrcucumber said @ 7:48pm GMT on 19th Sep
You have to understand. The position is that the lack of a position qualifies that position as an absence of a position.

No, wait......
radioelectric said @ 12:28am GMT on 20th Sep
The difference is that Jax isn't basing scientific research on his political opinions.
-_- said @ 1:50am GMT on 20th Sep
"Don't you have something better to be doing, like jacking off to Ayn Rand?"

You wouldn't think that's funny if you had read Atlas Shrugged.

Ayn liked rough sex.
Milkman666 said @ 5:46pm GMT on 19th Sep
You'd be a lot more convincing if your bias wasn't showing.

The article and the one i posted afterward remind me of when the history channel and discovery do those shows entitled "The science of Iron Man" or "Single sex in the city, gender roles in urban enviroments" on whatever new film they can shoehorn into their channel lineup. Im sure its sensationalized a bit.

What your missing is, that if you do take whatever statistical anomaly they found as indicating something grander, who's to say who is actually perceiving the situation as factually as possible. You could make the case that liberals are desensitized to all the reasonable signs of trouble. That the conservative viewpoint is the one that is grounded in reality. The real mindfucker is the idea that you are biologically primed to either lean one way or another. That whatever you devoutly feel to be true ideologically or politically is influenced by a small biological golem. What is it that you believe that you can earnestly say is the sole product of your rational mind, without the interference of that little lizard impulse to one side. Is there any doubt in your mind? If not, what does that tell the rest of us about you?
jaxtraw said @ 6:04pm GMT on 19th Sep [Score:1 Insightful]
I'm not biased. I'd call bullshit if this were a predominantly conservative site and the junk science were pro-conservative. As I said, I've no time for either philosophy.

But the idea of a biological basis to political thought is a dangerous one and should be handled with tongs. The whole field is intensely subjective, and it leads easily to a justification of [one's political opponents] as anomalous, damaged, suffering some kind of disorder. "I don't have to listen to them, cos they're broke, look, I have this crappy statistical study to prove it."

What kicks me in the gut though is the displacement. I live in a country run by the liberal left, and it's more socially and politically authoritarian than at any time in history. It is riddled, like the modern left, with an obsession with group protection from overhyped and imagined threat. It's a polity that utterly disregards any concept of civil liberties or individual rights- even any meaning to the term individual. It's a country of security cameras, routine wiretapping and secret police in various guises. It's what the US Constitution frustrates the US left from actually implementing. Look at England, and they can see what it actually looks like in practise. So, I've little time for "liberals" slapping each other on the back about how "permissive" they are.
f00m@nB@r said @ 6:05pm GMT on 19th Sep [Score:1 Insightful]
yes, you are biased.
revchoppy said @ 6:22pm GMT on 19th Sep
Of course you're biased.

Only a complete fucking moron would say that they're not biased.
Milkman666 said @ 6:27pm GMT on 19th Sep [Score:2]
If the article points to a fact about human nature it would be that there is a cleavage amongst people whereby some react harshly to provocative imagery and situations with a heightened sense of fear. Their political affiliation is not important, the fact that there is a lever that can be used to swing people is. Increased surveillance, authoritarian government, fascism in your country could very well have found its impetus from amongst people who felt it was the prudent work in the light of trumped up fears. Christ in the US we have wiretaps, secret police, and suspension of liberties all courtesy of the republican government. The fact that the small study grouped people amongst liberal and conservative groups, by american standards perhaps, could say more about how fear mongering is used by the modern republican party more than anything else.
wyckedfae said @ 6:50pm GMT on 19th Sep
I got all hung up on the word "cleavage" and found that the rest of this comment had nothing to do with tits. I demand my money back.

(Cleave is one of those words I adore for being a self-contained antonym. To cleave can mean to separate, or to bind together. Awesome.

Examples: Separate: I cleaved that goblin in twain!

Together: Her skirt cleaved to her thighs the way my lips once did.)
HoZay said @ 8:48pm GMT on 19th Sep
If you can make those two lines cleave together, you're on your way to a best seller.
HoZay said @ 8:55pm GMT on 19th Sep
It's what the US Constitution frustrates the US left from actually implementing.
In the US, it's the political right that is implementing all the surveillance and pushing the paranoia about overhyped and imagined threat. That has been their winning tactic for many years. Is this one of those brit/yank language flukes, where brit left/lib = yank right/con?
devilsad said @ 10:00pm GMT on 19th Sep
It's not the left or the right that is pushing the fear everything, surveillance state fascist crap. It's the authoritarians of both sides that are winning against the 'liberals' (in the original, non-Fox News sense of the word). PETA and the global warming doomsayers would like just as much to be able to control other people's lives as the neocons and the religious right. But people have been trained to recognize only left and right and assign all the bad people to the other side.
HoZay said @ 12:31am GMT on 20th Sep
PETA and global warming "doomsayers"? There must be some more scary leftist authoritarians than those.
devilsad said @ 11:50pm GMT on 20th Sep
Chavez? I couldn't think of any off the top, they haven't been getting much press lately.
revchoppy said @ 3:02pm GMT on 22nd Sep
do you really think Peta and global warming advocates wield anywhere NEAR the same power, let alone the same authoritarian tendencies as the neocon establishment in America?

really?
medyv said @ 2:36am GMT on 20th Sep [Score:1 Insightful]
It's more a matter of jaxtraw being full of shit. The defense of democratic rights and push for civil liberties have just as much a historical association with the British left as the US left.

Our trollish friend just likes to pretend "Labour" is "the left" to further his own right-wing ideological vendetta.
Raikva said @ 6:34pm GMT on 19th Sep
So you believe that some parts of your mind are not really you?
Milkman666 said @ 6:47pm GMT on 19th Sep
Where do your answers come from? The head or the heart? In reality it all takes place in the brain. If i have a preference for one method of reaching a conclusion over another the annotation of "location" just helps keep things orderly. Its all me, but sometimes its better to lift with your legs and not with your back. You get the job done both ways but one is preferable to the other.
shiney things said @ 6:11pm GMT on 19th Sep [Score:1 Underrated]
causation v correlation. people who are socially conservative in the traditional sense hold their beliefs for a reason. things like a pro-life stance, being against gay marriage, and other so called "family values are the result of upbringing. the same sorts of religious or sheltered upbringing that would result in being shocked by things like homosexuality and abortion would of course lead to being shocked by other disturbing noises and images.
benjamander said @ 6:33am GMT on 20th Sep
homosexuality is disturbing?

gary, get the pink noose. we got us a bigot.
Azoth said @ 7:51pm GMT on 19th Sep
There isn't enough of the actual study presented here to show that this is not science, but that's how this smells.

First, the article starts off with the tired old "we used to think that political preferences were environment, but it might actually be genetic" fallacy. This is a false dichotomy; it should be obvious to any thinking person that human social behavior is, and must be, an interaction of biological traits and social conditioning. To be fair, this may be the ignorance of the author of the article and not the actual opinion of the researchers, as goodness knows that newspaper articles on scientific studies frequently misrepresent the study.

Second, blinking and sweating do not necessarily point to any innate biological bias, as others here have mentioned. Physiological responses to fear and discomfort are highly malleable, which is to say that our fear responses have biological bases but the question of what triggers them can be highly dependent on our social conditioning. This evidence therefore does not imply any genetic basis to political partisanship.

I really wish science students were required to take rigorous courses in the application of basic logical argument to real world phenomena, and then maybe we'd get less of this junk science.
mrcucumber said @ 9:41pm GMT on 19th Sep
I think the point of the experiment was to prove that babies reacting to loud noises and threatening fearful things, grow up to be republicans.
Azoth said @ 10:51pm GMT on 19th Sep
The research they performed did nothing to prove that point. If they can show that

a) some infants are more genetically predisposed to fear reactions

AND

b) those children are significantly more likely to become republicans

then they might actually have the bare minimum of evidence necessary to propose such a theory.

They found that conservative adults are more likely to have a stronger fear reaction to particular stimulous. That's all. The study and the evidence it produced, as described by the article, does not imply anything as to WHY this is the case.

All that the article contains is an unfounded statement from one of the researchers that "such innate threat responses point to a biological, and perhaps genetic, basis to our politics."

At best, this is pure speculation on the point of the researcher, and at worst an outright lie. Nothing in the study specifically indicates that the responses have a genetic basis.
mrcucumber said @ 2:53am GMT on 20th Sep
Uh, I was being sarcastic? There is very little to prove anything beyond some people got together and hypothesized fear=republicans, flakey=democrats.
Azoth said @ 8:00am GMT on 20th Sep
I seem to be losing my ability to detect sarcasm online; there have been so many ridiculous statements posted lately I can't tell anymore when someone is joking or (deliberately) trolling.

I suspect that the posting of stupid opinions peaks around elections and during financial crises, as these events seem to bring out the knee jerk raving partisans...
arctan said @ 8:29pm GMT on 19th Sep
The idea that there's a Republican gene that makes you vote Republican is pretty stupid, I agree. (Then again, I get riled up whenever someone starts talking about how women are genetically imprinted with the desire to shop for shoes, and then I get shouted down for letting "PC dogma" overwhelm "empirical evidence", so it just goes to show.)

The idea that being a Republican, in our society, is correlated with an increased fear response to the shocking and grotesque, on the other hand, seems plausible to me and I'd be interested in hearing more about it. It's probably not as sweepingly explanatory a correlation as the article would have us believe; it could indeed just be as simple as "socially conservative people are more shielded from shocking and grotesque imagery in their entertainment and never develop an aesthetic taste for it".

That much shouldn't really be news; after all, Republicans are *proud* that they shelter their kids from the "filth" on TV, that when they see something like Piss Christ they figure out how to get it taken down and don't sit around debating what it "means", etc. I still find it interesting, though.
arctan said @ 8:33pm GMT on 19th Sep
Note that, as the article points out, you can spin this either way. The fact that people who vote Democratic are less likely to be freaked out by horrifying grotesque images that, frankly, probably *should* freak you out could lead to the argument that the culture among America's "liberal elites" is one of arrogant, overconfident complacency, where we're so privileged to be able to examine everything from a detached artistic perspective we don't know how to react to real threats.

It all ties very neatly into the ongoing conservative arguments that liberals are too "brainwashed" to understand that Islamofascists are making war on the Western world and we've made a suicide pact of the Constitution and so on and so forth.
brat#3 said @ 9:46pm GMT on 19th Sep
I hate shoe shopping. Don't let the bastards shout you down!
kang said @ 8:33pm GMT on 19th Sep
Why did you choose that thumb?

I see a few Burr cells. Hemolytic uremia or microangiopathy, maybe.
Milkman666 said @ 8:51pm GMT on 19th Sep
Oh my are you in for a disappointment. I suck at photo editing so after several failures i abandoned my original intention of mashing that thumb with this image




Photobucket
mrcucumber said @ 9:08pm GMT on 19th Sep
here:

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
stereophonicbreadsticks said @ 9:59pm GMT on 19th Sep
This image is what I was thinking of while reading the article. If there really were some kind of liberal/conservative genetic markers then you would think they would be found universally, perhaps with slightly higher concentrations in various places but not to the extent that say Alabama is dominated by Republicans while Massachusetts is dominated by Democrats. If anything the regional political polarization in the US should prove that the study is bull.

Further it is interesting that even in the reddest of red states large cities and college towns tend to be fairly strongly Democratic and even in the bluest of blue states small towns and rural areas tend to be more Republican. Unless they're willing to say that the urban/rural divide is genetic this study is probably just confirming the biases of the people involved.
Milkman666 said @ 11:15pm GMT on 19th Sep
How about this map?

Its not as if you can do genetic testing to see who is going to vote conservative or liberal. Thats just a very loose category that is used to umbrella a lot of ideas. This is just a snapshot of a small sample of people. They also only dealt with people who identified themselves as either socially conservative and liberal. Log cabin republicans and southern baptist democrats could confound this idea of democrats are this and republicans are that very easily.

If your going to take anything away from this let it be that there are people who respond greatly to stress stimuli and there are people who don't. Consider how that might effect a persons desicion making process, especially in light of a political campaign where things are being reduced to taglines such as "Protect the Homeland" and "Hope".
Azoth said @ 8:04am GMT on 20th Sep
That's the thing that would be cool if this study were valid; if you lived in a Republican state and someone asked which state you live in, you could answer "a state of fear!"

Ba-dum ching.
buzhidao said @ 10:02pm GMT on 19th Sep [Score:1 Informative]
i hope it's a marrow aspirate, cause those big-ass blue cells shouldnt be out in the periphery at all.
also, i think the rbc's look all shitty, so the burrs might be artifact. it happens a LOT, so dont be fooled.
f00m@nB@r said @ 1:49am GMT on 20th Sep
you're cute when you get all doctory. :P
-_- said @ 1:51am GMT on 20th Sep
Totally gives me a hadron :P
buzhidao said @ 3:12am GMT on 21st Sep
i love it when you get cute, or something. :p

i can turn your loved one into a canoe in thirty minutes.
buzhidao said @ 3:08am GMT on 21st Sep
kang, glad i could help clarify!
i try to impart a little wisdom now and again. but it's not often these kind of images are posted. this one really has the look of an ill-preserved specimen, which is hard to explain but important to recognize. this is why it's so essential to communicate about specimens, esp things like marrows. specimen integrity is SO important. please, if you have any questions about specimens, or any clinical laboratory issues, let me know. i'm recently boarded in AP/CP path, so am theoretically able to answer any questions. also, i find it fun. i have a big network of pathologists to reference, too. w00t!

for the rest of you, yes, pathologists are as hot in real life as they are on the tv, and probably more so.
f00m@nB@r said @ 7:19pm GMT on 21st Sep
and you've never lost a patient!

(i was in a play with a pathologist, once, and that was his favorite joke.)
LeavemeAlone said @ 1:54am GMT on 20th Sep [Score:1 Interesting]

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