Sensible Erection | Sensible Howling II - Return to Lupensbrusch

Sunday, 2 December 2007

Sensible Howling II - Return to Lupensbrusch - Day 6

quote [ The full moon has set. This morning, the sun shines upon the town of Lupensbrusch once more. ]

Day 6 of Sensible Howling II Begins

The full moon has set. This morning, the sun shines upon the town of Lupensbrusch once more.

Yesterday the town rejoiced at the unexpected return of valen85 from beyond the grave. Today, he’s dead again, his skull peppered with bullet holes.

Mayor VictorTyne is sitting on his front porch, polishing his gun. As the townsfolk gather in the square, he yells out “HEY! Who the shit do I have to kill to get some breakfast around here? C’mon! Mayor wants bacon and eggs! And hurry up with those two test victims. I’ve got an itchy trigger finger today!”

Day 0 - http://www.sensibleerection.com/entry.php/68243
Day 1 - http://www.sensibleerection.com/entry.php/68277
Day 2 - http://www.sensibleerection.com/entry.php/68304
Day 3 - http://www.sensibleerection.com/entry.php/68332
Day 4 - http://www.sensibleerection.com/entry.php/68364
Day 5 - http://www.sensibleerection.com/entry.php/68400

The Players
~~Vampire X~~, a Jehovah’s Witness - Werewolf, killed on Day 1
~~talisan~~, the PETA Representative - Werewolf, killed on Day 3
~~badgerbaiter~~, the Dentist - Werewolf, killed on Day 3
~~Fr3nZy~~, the Dockmaster - Killed by Mayor on Day 2
~~Kimota~~, the CEO of Brucsh Turnips, Wealthiest Man In All the Land - Werewolf, killed on Day 4
~~valen85~~, the Butcher - Killed by Mayor on Day 5

dothedrew, a Merchant
Eru, the Asylum Warden
A friend, a Masseuse (legit)
justus, the Doomsayer (A)
Alacron, a Whiny Teenager
FifthSpango, the Oat Farmer
macst34, the Baker (A)
Dooming Doom, the Sculptor
DefianceFalcon, a Stable Boy
Jewbacchus, a Moonshiner
BlackMage, the Doctor
talondarkx, the Innkeep (A)
M.Sartre, the Carpenter
LoC, a Cultist
Philistine, an Inventor
philby, a Door-to-door salesman
TeDDD, the Handyman
solitude, the Barber

(A) – Warned for Non-participation

[mafia game] [by VictorTyne@8:49pmGMT] [+7 WTF]

Comments

VictorTyne said @ 8:51pm GMT on 2nd Dec

Testing Happens – 12/03 24:00MST

Day Ends – 12/04 12:00MST

Post your two Test Votes Here!

FifthSpango said @ 9:46pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Alacron and DefianceFalcon. Reasons Below.

Won't you please jump on my bandwagon?

solitude said @ 9:55pm GMT on 2nd Dec
I vote for Alacron and FifthSpango for reasons listed below.

solitude said @ 11:51pm GMT on 2nd Dec
I change my vote to Alacron and Eru for reasons listed somewhere below.

Eru said @ 10:02pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Alacron and DefianceFalcon

philby said @ 10:09pm GMT on 2nd Dec
alacron and third spango.. we're bound to get one that way... and alacron has dodged the testers wand too many times!

philby said @ 11:39pm GMT on 2nd Dec
make that alacron and defiance falcon

dothedrew said @ 10:14pm GMT on 2nd Dec
M. Sartre and Eru

DO NOT VOTE FOR ALACRON! Reasons below.

dothedrew said @ 10:58pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Changing to Alacron and DefianceFalcon

LoC said @ 10:18pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Eh
Defiance Falcon and M.Sartre even though his name makes me giggle.

M.Sartre said @ 10:33pm GMT on 2nd Dec
DefianceFalcon and M.Sartre then.

M.Sartre said @ 11:44pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Seeing as there is a conflict, I'll vote one from each side of this argument instead.
dothedrew and Eru.

BlackMage said @ 12:02am GMT on 3rd Dec
m.satre and eru

Dooming_Doom said @ 1:35am GMT on 3rd Dec
Alacron and FifthSpango.

Dooming_Doom said @ 4:48am GMT on 3rd Dec
Make that M.Sartre and Alacron.

TeDDD said @ 1:47am GMT on 3rd Dec
"We are past the point where I feel I need to explain my actions. Repeatedly you all have ignored my warnings, and now it may be too late.

I vote Alacron and DefianceFalcon."

Jewbacchus said @ 1:51am GMT on 3rd Dec
M. Sartre and DefianceFalcon
because the days are short and most of you won't change in time, and Alacron is a wasted test.

talondarkx said @ 2:18am GMT on 3rd Dec
M.Sartre and Alacron

A friend said @ 3:48am GMT on 3rd Dec
I saids it yesterdays and I'll says it today, we needs must test DeffianceFalcon and M.Sarte NOW!

DefianceFalcon said @ 4:48am GMT on 3rd Dec
M.Sartre and Alacron

Alacron said @ 7:08am GMT on 3rd Dec
I vote to test Eru and DefianceFalcon

It is likely I'll be tested today anyway but logically you have no reason not to vote for one of the two I have, and hopefully in addition to proving me innocent we can bring down a wolf.

justus said @ 7:38am GMT on 3rd Dec
Alacron and DefianceFalcon.

I'd like to test Alacron as collateral on the Thorner story; call me paranoid.

DefianceFalcon is my semi-random vote from the "people who may have started as a wolf" category.

Philistine said @ 11:13am GMT on 3rd Dec
Dothedrew and Macst34

macst34 said @ 7:18pm GMT on 3rd Dec
Alacron and DefianceFalcon

dothedrew said @ 7:25pm GMT on 3rd Dec
Way to go.

FifthSpango said @ 9:45pm GMT on 2nd Dec
I posted this quite late in the day yesterday, and I'd like it to get a proper airing, so once again;

Folks, I think there is far too much speculation going on. Honestly, we know nothing and kidding ourselves if we think we do. The infection theory is a good one, and I admit I subscribe to it, but equally the appearance of the full moon could be the start of ass slayings, compensating for four days inactivity.

But i think that convincing us of a false theory and leading us through speculation is the wolfs best strategy, regardless if one of the theory's floating around is correct or not. Which is why I mistrust the people who are trying to get us to plan ahead. Which is why I mistrust Alacron.

http://www.sensibleerection.com/comment.php/68304/1208190
http://www.sensibleerection.com/comment.php/68332/1209124

I think that plantive cry may well be a howl.

But let's be fair and look at the voting record. Days one through three vote one went to taldarxx, who hasn't been tested. Telling us not much. But, on all three of those days his second vote went to now confirmed townies; A friend, Tedd and Blackmage respectively. On day four talondarxx was dropped in favour of philistine as the untested nominee. The kicker is Philby joined the other three as the confirmed townie. Out of four confied votes alacron has voted for 4 townies. Surely that is enough to justify testing alone?

C'mon folks.

Alacron did respond to this (though it did nothing to assuage my fears), look under day 5.

To add a few more thoughts; I agree with dothedrew and A Friend on the apparant guilt of Defiance Falcon/ M Satre and Eru (was there another?). Of those Defiance Falcon is my second vote, though not for any particular reason. M Satre needs testing, but Alacron is a bigger priority to me for now. Eru is supporting me on the Alacron front, so I'll think a little more about him once that mystery is unraveled.

That the full moon passed without incident is worrying, and does tend to lend creedence to the infection theory. Given the lack of town death by lynching this could mean that almost everyone will survive untill the end, which would be a nice touch. It's seems almost inevitable that we will have to start retesting at some point, but i don't like it. Because, if the infection theory is wrong retesting is a surefire way to through away tests. Personally, I will consider it tommorrow, if there are no further developments, but my votes for today are decided.

My fellow townsfolk can rest assured that I have posted a ring of sentry oats around myself, these valient cereals can be relied upon to stand up too all manner of creepy-crawlies. i even have an ear of corn handy should all else fail. No wolfie is tainting my noble farming blood.

solitude said @ 9:51pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Highly probably the persons being branded for non-participation are the people who have lost interest in the game. I think that since the wolves are the ones who know best how this game works at the moment, they are least likely to give up this way. Therefore I think it wisest to ignore them (for now) and not waste votes on them.

Confirmed townies:
A Friend (day 1)
Jewbacchus (day 2) (pffffbpt)
TeDDD (day 2)
Blackmage (day 3)
Philby (day 4)
Solitude (day 4)
Philistine (day 5)
LoC (day 5)

That leaves us with possible candidates:
dothedrew
Eru
Alacron
FifthSpango
Dooming Doom
DefianceFalcon
M.Sartre

The most vocal of them have been Alacron, dothedrew and FifthSpange (i think). Don't know if that should be seen as a sign of innocence or not. For the moment I'll give the silent ones the benefit of the doubt, since we don't have any info on them to go on.

solitude said @ 9:55pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Interesting to see the crusade FifthSpango has going against Alacron though. If one is innocent it almost guarantees the others guilt. Or at least a very misguided FifthSpango. So I think I'll go with the both of them as my vote, as the probability of one of them being wolf seems pretty high.

dothedrew said @ 10:12pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Well, based on the bandwagons you two are trying to form, I'd say it's about time... I've talked with my confederates and we've decided to come out.

Dooming Doom, Jewbacchus, Alacron and myself are the members of the Confederacy of the Thorn (you can just call us Masons). Jewbacchus, an already confirmed innocent, will back me up. As such, please turn the bandwagon on Alacron around and point it at any of the following:

Eru
DefianceFalcon
M. Sartre

My reasons for those three were posted yesterday. If they aren't wolves then we should go for Spango and Justus... and if the game is still going, then it would be time to seriously consider infection, and retesting.

solitude said @ 10:30pm GMT on 2nd Dec
However based on the infection theory, Jewbacchus is not necessarily confirmed anymore. A testing of you and FifthSpango would sort that out very quickly however. Yes it'd be a "wasted" vote for you if true, but at least we'd be sure of you trustworthiness.

dothedrew said @ 10:44pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Based on the infection theory, you could be a new werewolf out to waste the towns votes. I posted evidence towards Spango being innocent 'yesterday', and if just Jewbacchus won't do it for you, I'm sure that Dooming Doom and Alacron will also confirm their Thornership.

I'm not saying that Jewbacchus, or even any of my other fellow Thorners are innocent under the infection theory. What I am saying is that they originally were not werewolves, and neither was I. Let's finish hunting the original wolves before we go for theories.

Eru said @ 10:46pm GMT on 2nd Dec
In that case you'll have no objections if we test Alacron....

dothedrew said @ 10:51pm GMT on 2nd Dec
I do, because he didn't start as a wolf. There is no proof of infection, just extrapolation. I'd like for us to use our votes economically... testing you, for instance.

solitude said @ 11:00pm GMT on 2nd Dec
But if he's innocent and confirms being a thorner he'll clear 3 people of our (re)testing roster and actually improve the speed at which we test for original wolves.

solitude said @ 10:55pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Alacron confirming thornership is obviously of no value. Two untested people saying they are thorners can just as easily be two wolves saying they are thorners.

I am inclined to believe you, however we have no way of knowing for certain unless we test one of your thorners now. So we can be 100% sure an innocent is backing up your claim. Under the infection theory no one other than one confirmed to be innocent today will give a 100% guarantee.

However I do agree on your point that we should continue to finish hunting the original wolves before we start testing our infection theory. Whether true or not, even when infection has happened, we still also have to get the initial wolves.

Without testing your claims are worthless however. So I suggest we test one of you (no more), for example Alacron. If he is innocent and confirms today to be part of the thorners we can remove 4 off of our checklist and greatly improve the speed at which we test people.

dothedrew said @ 10:57pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Ok. I'll go for it. Also, if he does turn up lupine, it verifies the infection theory (at least to me).

solitude said @ 11:10pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Exactly. And if he doesn't we'll have scrapped 3 people from our (re)test roster. Win-win situation.

Eru said @ 10:58pm GMT on 2nd Dec
oh good, somebody agrees with me.

FifthSpango said @ 10:44pm GMT on 2nd Dec
That's nice. And I want to believe you. But I don't yet.

Jewbacchus was tested on day 2, that was a while ago and so proves absolutly nothing. The rest of you are untested, though I'll happily admit that you seemed a likely innocent untill now.

But what the hell is this? the pro-town side revealing itself at this point in the game, for what? To stop Alacron getting tested? If he's not a wolf he won't die, so what the hell? Sure you've given us three names but you've revealed yourself? and the names don't seem to be chosen on anything other than informed speculation. If this is true it's bloody odd.

I'm sticking with Alacron for now, and if he is as wolf as i believe then I've got a nice list to be going on with. If anyone wants me tested, then go for it. I will point out that it would be relativly insane for a wolf to be as vocal as I have about a non-wolf, really what is to gain?

dothedrew said @ 10:50pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Like you said, it would be insane for a wolf to be as vocal as you have. I have in the last couple of days been nearly as vocal as you. If I were a wolf, this would be a ridiculous ploy. No. Instead, I'm trying to finish off the original wolves.

WE DON'T KNOW IF THE INFECTION THEORY IS TRUE

I'd like to work off of what we do know before unnecessarily chasing leads. However, that said, I don't know if Alacron is a wolf, or any of my fellow Thorners. I do however know that they did not start out as wolves, which cuts the pool of suspicious untested players nearly in half, and which is why I proposed this course of action to them in our forum.

solitude said @ 10:58pm GMT on 2nd Dec
WE DON'T KNOW IF THE INFECTION THEORY IS UNTRUE

So let's remain careful who we trust. Because trusting the wrong person (if infection holds true) could be devastating.

FifthSpango said @ 11:02pm GMT on 2nd Dec
I can see what you say. But I still think it's an absurd risk, assuming that being in "the council" grants you some form of special power- You may well have lost the town that power. Put simply, the Wolves have to be doing something, and chances are they are now doing something to you...

From the position of ignorance I'm sitting in this is all suspicious as republican in a public toilet. Tricking the town into thinking they are the "good guys" would be the wolves grail, and for that reason alone I still want to test Alacron.

Eru said @ 10:57pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Sorry, but I have to call bullshit. I'll number my points for ease of referring to them later.

1. It cannot be confirmed that Jewbacchus or any of the other people you mentioned are innocent. Their compliance may only mean that they too, are werewolves. This has been raised already so there's no need to go into it further.

2. Why now? If you truly are masons then you're idiots. What you've just done is told the werewolves exactly who to bite. And for what? to save Alacron from a testing that doesn't harm him? Sorry, That makes no sense to me.

3. The existence of Masons at all in a game such as this puzzles me. If the infection theory is correct then it wouldn't seem to make sense. What would happen if one was bitten, either they would disappear from the mason group and their identity would immediately be known, or they would be playing both sides at once and be able to give the wolves their fellows' names destroying the point of having a mason group in the first place.

Conclusion: We should not follow these people blindly. We must make at least 1 test before we can trust that this is not simply a bold move on the part of the werewolves.

If you doubt me, I encourage you to vote for Alacron and myself. If you believe me, I ask that you vote for Alacron and DefianceFalcon

solitude said @ 11:03pm GMT on 2nd Dec
It wouldn't be the first time wolves put forth such a bold statement in an attempt to throw towners off their scent. I vaguely remember a solitary bloke in Lupensbrusch a couple of years ago just before our town was wiped out, who did similar things and turned out to be the alpha wolf.

dothedrew said @ 11:17pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Haha. And that was well fucking played man, and one of the main reasons why I voted for you earlier in the game.

Two views: Without infection, this play as a werewolf wouldn't make sense. Either one of my confederates who supported me would be tested and summarily executed along with myself, or I would have named people who would just go "Wtf are you talking about? Die werewolf!"

With infection, this play as a werewolf still wouldn't make much sense. I would be basically giving a list of infectees, and due to you lot being suspicious bastards you would want to put it to the test, thus also being detrimental to werewolves.

If I were a wolf, I would have fought the idea of testing one of my named compadres tooth and claw. I fought for a bit, and then I agreed. I'm not a wolf, they might well be, but they aren't among the original wolves.

FifthSpango said @ 11:40pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Unless, of course, the remainder of the wolf block swings the vote away from alacron and one of the others on your list turns out to be a sacrifical wolf. Thus buying your four names trust and protection for at least a few days. If Alacron isn't tested.

If Alacron is tested and proves innocent then we'll have a good deal to go on based on those who voted for and championed him. Sure, that puts my head on the block, but I couldn't care less.

Incidentally, Drew what is it with you and being at the heart of utter chaos in mafia games?

solitude said @ 11:55pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Also it is essential that Alacron confirms his membership of the Masons!. Otherwise nothing is won with this.

If you are telling the truth however dothedrew, i want to thank you, because it saves us three tests, equaling 1.5 days.

dothedrew said @ 7:11am GMT on 3rd Dec
I'm pretty sure there are enough votes for alacron to not have it swayed. If he's innocent, you have a list of names, if he's not, you have a list of names. Win-win.

Dude, I have no idea. The R2D2 thing started innocently enough, but definitely blew up into a fully fledged cluterfuck from there. I really didn't think it would be this big a deal if the Thorners came out. I was just trying to narrow down the lynching.

However, it is kind of fun.

dothedrew said @ 11:11pm GMT on 2nd Dec
2. Dude, there's already eight confirmed innocents. Plus, the werewolves already know who to bite: everyone else.

3. The point of a Mason group is as a slightly more informed town voting bloc, not to protect the identities of the members. The wolves are trying to beat everyone who isn't them, and they already know who that is. These days have been short enough that there hasn't been much coordination between us Thorners, and we decided that the best way we could contribute our only slightly special role is to reveal ourselves and speed up the lynches.

solitude said @ 11:51pm GMT on 2nd Dec
That (especially in this setting) also makes sense. Dothedrew could be yanking our proverbial chain. So if he is, we've got a good lead on who to go after, if he's not, we also do. So this is actually a good thing to happen I think.

However considering his biggest adversaries at the moment are Eru, DefianceFalcon and M.Sartre, of which Eru is the most vocal; it makes sense to me to vote for one out of the (supposed) Thorner group and one out of the listed untested people. I will change my vote accordingly.

Eru said @ 12:08am GMT on 3rd Dec
I'll concede point 3.

As far as point 2 goes. You've given them information that they didn't already have. It'll make it easy for them to tear your little group apart if they so choose. It also narrows down their choices for finding special roles such as investigator and protector, if in fact there are any. I hope the extra 1.5 days will be enough to offset this fact.

BlackMage said @ 11:31pm GMT on 2nd Dec
Major assumption in your reasoning: infection.
Only if infection exists do you have an argument. I'm not attacking your points but it all relies on the infection rule.

Eru said @ 12:04am GMT on 3rd Dec
Of course, everything so far has relied on that assumption, so that's nothing new. But I have faith in the infection theory. If there are no night kills and no infections how else could the werewolves possibly win?

Alacron said @ 7:15am GMT on 3rd Dec
The second and more unlikely way for the werewolf's to win would be through some form of slow poison. (ah la the slow acting poison that the bounty hunters used to kill off light sider's in Sensible Jedi)

I'm sure there are other possibilities but the infection is just the most likely not the only option, lets not put all the eggs in one basket we are flying blind enough as it is.

dothedrew said @ 7:18am GMT on 3rd Dec
Survival until the King's men burn down the town?

Jewbacchus said @ 1:34am GMT on 3rd Dec
you're a right cunt.

Jewbacchus said @ 1:49am GMT on 3rd Dec
Alright. He's telling the truth. The other three agreed to this before I'd checked the forums. I'm not sure it was the best move to out all four of us, but it's been done and t'ain't nothing I can about it.

I'd found the group of questionable use other than confirming four not-original wolves anyway, since any one of us could have been 'infected'.
Assuming infection happens. I still have no fucking clue what's balancing out the townie kills side of this game, and infection would make sense, but it's kind of shit.

That there was a full moon last night and STILL nothing for us to go off of sucks.

List on Confirmed Non-Original Wolves:
DoTheDrew
Alacron
DoomingDoom
A friend (day 1, and why is she the only one listed as legit on player list?)
Jewbacchus (day 2)
TeDDD (day 2)
Blackmage (day 3)
Philby (day 4)
Solitude (day 4)
LoC, a Cultist (day 5)
Philistine, an Inventor (day 5)

which leaves us.

Eru, the Asylum Warden
justus, the Doomsayer (A)
FifthSpango, the Oat Farmer
macst34, the Baker (A)
DefianceFalcon, a Stable Boy
talondarkx, the Innkeep (A)
M.Sartre, the Carpenter

We have killed four wolves. I'm not sure what a fair starting number would be. I think tonight we vote from this pool and tomorrow we start re-testing one or two.

As potential wolves. I'm going to stick to my votes since the beginning, M. Sartre and macst34. Don't really have the time to strategize further.

FifthSpango said @ 2:01am GMT on 3rd Dec
I'm beggining to feel a little foolish.

If ya'll are who you say you are then I apologise If I forced your hand somewhat. But I still think this is bloody odd.

Jewbacchus said @ 2:14am GMT on 3rd Dec
No, I do too. There was no reason for us to out ourselves, Alacron would have been tested and confirmed innocent and that would have been that.
I had no part in the decision and think more chaos is always worse in these things.

That said.

It is doubtful all four of us could have been converted, if conversions happens (which it seems like they do.). All four of us are at once acknowledging each other as mason, and I have been previously confirmed innocent.

You didn't force anyones hand, there were better ways to do this.

philby said @ 10:31am GMT on 3rd Dec
legit as in legitimate masseuse, as in not a dodgy or shady or morally questionable type of masseuse, is what that means.

Dooming_Doom said @ 1:34am GMT on 3rd Dec
He is, in fact, telling the truth.
But I'm more than willing to have Alacron tested as collateral.

Alacron said @ 3:22am GMT on 3rd Dec
Well look at all this, you sleep like a human for the normal eight hours and when you wake up everyone is in your face. I'll read through shortly and reply to all questions but for the big one YES I am a Thorner/Mason. Town's secrete cabal.

I am also completely human, however in addition to the things I have stated that I am, what I'm not is an idiot. For what ever reason I have the ability to lose all innocence from me in any mafia game. I understand these beliefs need testing so I'm not going to be two worried with the town test vote in my name but please cast your second vote for Eru, DefianceFalcon, or M. Sartre. One of the Spango brothers would also be a worthy testing vote.

solitude said @ 3:42am GMT on 3rd Dec
Thanks! If (or should I say when) you are proven innocent it will save this town 1.5 days of voting. I actually think this has been a good thing, even though the way it went down is a bit (a lot) odd.

FifthSpango said @ 3:46am GMT on 3rd Dec
I believe the others. I still don't believe you :p.

A friend said @ 3:46am GMT on 3rd Dec
I'm starting to think there is no infection simply because I of all people haven't gotten bitten yet, I've had night sex with two seemingly different peope but no mention of a big furry bed bug at all so I'm thinking the werewolves just have to survive till the end to win when they get a big feast of innocents.
For the moment I'm ready to accept the word of jewbacchus about these thorners so I can't in good conscience vote for alacron right now.
But as I said yesterday, DefianceFalcon and M.Sarte NEED testing now.

dothedrew said @ 7:15am GMT on 3rd Dec
In I think Producers, there was a role that used sex as a blocker/protection. Although it could be an investigation too. Or an STD of lupinia. Haha... uh.

Yeah, I was thinking about the last-until-the-end thing too. I guess we'll just have to go after the original wolves and find out.

solitude said @ 3:47am GMT on 3rd Dec
Dear Masons (and townies),

Let's just assume Alacron is tested innocent. We have a unified front on that area, however our second test is less stable. Who would you guys have us vote for? My gut tells me the wolves are using this to divide our second testing vote and swaying that to their advantage. If we could just follow suit on your advice we'd be guaranteed te be testing who we need to test. I see about equal votes for DefianceFalcon, Eru and M.Sartre. My suggestion would be to choose one of those and all follow that vote instead of dividing and allowing the possibility of no wolves being tested.

A friend said @ 3:52am GMT on 3rd Dec
Thems the three as I most suspects right now but I only gets two votes so I'll save Eru and Alacron for tommorrow.

Eru said @ 4:08am GMT on 3rd Dec
Would it help if I told you I was innocent?

Anyway, Alacron will have been tested by the end of today (I bloody well hope), so you're going to have to find another person as your second.

Alacron said @ 7:00am GMT on 3rd Dec
They don't believe I'm innocent either and I've got 3 fellow Thorners speaking up for me, frankly I've got no reason to believe you. Which is why I've cast my vote to see you tested.

Jewbacchus said @ 5:35am GMT on 3rd Dec [Score:2]
Can we just get this game over with?