Sensible Erection | Simpl Wurdz

Thursday, 6 July 2006

quote [ When "say," "they" and "weigh" rhyme, but "bomb," "comb" and "tomb" don't, wuudn't it maek mor sens to spel wurdz the wae thae sound?

Those in favor of simplified spelling say children would learn faster and illiteracy rates would drop. Opponents say a new system would make spelling even more confusing. ]

oMg! |337 sp33ch iz kumming 4 j00!

For some historical reference on "American English" and "Commonwealth British English" and the past American efforts on reforming our version of English:

Wikipedia Entries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelling_reform
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_spelling_differences
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_pronunciation_differences
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_words_not_widely_used_in_the_United_Kingdom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_words_not_widely_used_in_the_United_States

Benjamin Franklin's Reform Efforts
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/franklin.htm

Mark Twain's Reform Efforts
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/texts/twain.html

[sci&tech] [by fedhax@6:24pmGMT] [+10]

Comments

YHVH said @ 6:25pm GMT on 6th Jul [Score:2 Underrated]
no

sherlock said @ 6:28pm GMT on 6th Jul
yesh

Humpy said @ 6:28pm GMT on 6th Jul
know

black said @ 9:08pm GMT on 6th Jul
nough

benjamander said @ 9:13pm GMT on 6th Jul
knoughe

mao tse helen said @ 9:52pm GMT on 6th Jul
pneaux

Todomanna said @ 11:13pm GMT on 6th Jul
iez

Dissonant said @ 4:36am GMT on 7th Jul
能

Wait, what were we talking about?

Flommit said @ 8:44am GMT on 7th Jul
neng?

Mozart said @ 6:29pm GMT on 6th Jul
This sort of nonsense has been around since before Melville Dewey dropped his "le" and became Melvil Dewey. If he wasn't such a pussy, he'd have made himself into Melvil Dewy.

Mozart said @ 6:30pm GMT on 6th Jul
OK, I guess he made it into "Dui." Whatever.

f00m@nB@r said @ 6:41pm GMT on 6th Jul
ptui.

benjamander said @ 6:35pm GMT on 6th Jul
shades of 1984...?

VictorTyne said @ 7:43pm GMT on 6th Jul
Not really. Newspeak was intended to curtail expression by limiting the number of different words available. This is just people being stupid.

benjamander said @ 9:32pm GMT on 6th Jul [Score:2 Underrated]
right, but it was simplifying the language to curtail the actual knowledge of complex concepts. If we get rid of latin roots and greek suffixes and japanese cognates etc etc etc, then I think that which is being communicated loses something. I think in reading words the spelling adds a connotative meaning. For instance, Knight. If it didn't look middle-english-y would it have the same connotations of chivalry and honor and big guys with swords?

(also, the weird spellings tell you what language it's from, like the article said, helping to derive meanings one doesn't know. If we simplified spellings, we'd have more trouble reading old writing.)

yevishere said @ 6:35pm GMT on 6th Jul
+1 Mark Twain

f00m@nB@r said @ 6:40pm GMT on 6th Jul
crap.

f00m@nB@r said @ 6:40pm GMT on 6th Jul
not worthy of a whole post, but google has a new photo sharing site, tied in with picasa.

rawcks said @ 6:41pm GMT on 6th Jul
this is exactly what you get from loony educators who give credit for 2+2=5 because telling a student that it's wrong will lower his/her self esteem.

pestilence said @ 6:42pm GMT on 6th Jul
i think that's a bit of an exaggeration

LordFeldo said @ 8:32pm GMT on 6th Jul
it's not.

true story from the new york public education system:

In 3rd I was assigned four problems for math HW.

1. If math were a color, what color would it be?

2. If math were a type of weather, what type of weather would it be?

3. If math were a food, what food would it be?

4. "" mood "".

I was sent to the principal because I told the teacher "this is stupid.".
I'm assuming that this, as a major part of the "Chicago Math" approach which was widely used in NY, was not an uncommon lesson. There were many other open-ended, no wrong answer, kinds of shit in math class.

With a former professor for my mother, the issue of a good math education has been brought up a lot and if i dig a little I can find some TERRIBLE things.

benjamander said @ 9:12pm GMT on 6th Jul
Yeah, a lot of math education is crap. If you don't mind me asking, what year were you in the 3rd grade?

BigTurk said @ 9:29pm GMT on 6th Jul [Score:2]
He was prolly 9, or thereabouts.

BigTurk said @ 9:29pm GMT on 6th Jul
Oh, hey, that was comment #1000, w00t.

LordFeldo said @ 9:30pm GMT on 6th Jul
there's no +1 arbitrary numerical benchmark.

Shirobake said @ 10:13pm GMT on 6th Jul
Feldo's filled with love for his fellow man.

pestilence said @ 6:41pm GMT on 6th Jul
no no no

how am i supposed to feel superior if everyone can spell as well as i can?

fedhax said @ 7:03pm GMT on 6th Jul [Score:1 Funny]
You still have them beat in your inability to capitalize properly and insufficient punctuation use.

<3

pestilence said @ 7:08pm GMT on 6th Jul [Score:1 Informative]
punctuation schmunctuation

...capitalize shmapitalize.

gos_jim said @ 6:42pm GMT on 6th Jul [Score:4 Underrated]
The Chaos

Dearest creature in creation,
Study English pronunciation.
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse.
I will keep you, Suzy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy.
Tear in eye, your dress will tear.
So shall I! Oh hear my prayer.

Just compare heart, beard, and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word,
Sword and sward, retain and Britain.
(Mind the latter, how it's written.)
Now I surely will not plague you
With such words as plaque and ague.
But be careful how you speak:
Say break and steak, but bleak and streak;
Cloven, oven, how and low,
Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe.

Hear me say, devoid of trickery,
Daughter, laughter, and Terpsichore,
Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles,
Exiles, similes, and reviles;
Scholar, vicar, and cigar,
Solar, mica, war and far;
One, anemone, Balmoral,
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel;
Gertrude, German, wind and mind,
Scene, Melpomene, mankind.

Billet does not rhyme with ballet,
Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet.
Blood and flood are not like food,
Nor is mould like should and would.
Viscous, viscount, load and broad,
Toward, to forward, to reward.
And your pronunciation's OK
When you correctly say croquet,
Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,
Friend and fiend, alive and live.

Ivy, privy, famous; clamour
And enamour rhyme with hammer.
River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb,
Doll and roll and some and home.
Stranger does not rhyme with anger,
Neither does devour with clangour.
Souls but foul, haunt but aunt,
Font, front, wont, want, grand, and grant,
Shoes, goes, does. Now first say finger,
And then singer, ginger, linger,
Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge,
Marriage, foliage, mirage, and age.

Query does not rhyme with very,
Nor does fury sound like bury.
Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth.
Job, nob, bosom, transom, oath.
Though the differences seem little,
We say actual but victual.
Refer does not rhyme with deafer.
Foeffer does, and zephyr, heifer.
Mint, pint, senate and sedate;
Dull, bull, and George ate late.
Scenic, Arabic, Pacific,
Science, conscience, scientific.

Liberty, library, heave and heaven,
Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven.
We say hallowed, but allowed,
People, leopard, towed, but vowed.
Mark the differences, moreover,
Between mover, cover, clover;
Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,
Chalice, but police and lice;
Camel, constable, unstable,
Principle, disciple, label.

Petal, panel, and canal,
Wait, surprise, plait, promise, pal.
Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair,
Senator, spectator, mayor.
Tour, but our and succour, four.
Gas, alas, and Arkansas.
Sea, idea, Korea, area,
Psalm, Maria, but malaria.
Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean.
Doctrine, turpentine, marine.

Compare alien with Italian,
Dandelion and battalion.
Sally with ally, yea, ye,
Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key.
Say aver, but ever, fever,
Neither, leisure, skein, deceiver.
Heron, granary, canary.
Crevice and device and aerie.

Face, but preface, not efface.
Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass.
Large, but target, gin, give, verging,
Ought, out, joust and scour, scourging.
Ear, but earn and wear and tear
Do not rhyme with here but ere.
Seven is right, but so is even,
Hyphen, roughen, nephew Stephen,
Monkey, donkey, Turk and jerk,
Ask, grasp, wasp, and cork and work.

Pronunciation -- think of Psyche!
Is a paling stout and spikey?
Won't it make you lose your wits,
Writing groats and saying grits?
It's a dark abyss or tunnel:
Strewn with stones, stowed, solace, gunwale,
Islington and Isle of Wight,
Housewife, verdict and indict.

Finally, which rhymes with enough–
Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough?
Hiccough has the sound of cup.
My advice is to give it up!!!

—Gerald Nolst Trenite

pestilence said @ 6:45pm GMT on 6th Jul
too long

teknokracy said @ 7:10pm GMT on 6th Jul
thats not what your girlfriend said.

Some Guy Who Says "Zing!" said @ 7:30pm GMT on 6th Jul [Score:2 Interesting]
Zing!

Some Guy Who Likes Monty Pytho said @ 11:16pm GMT on 6th Jul
Hey, do you have a machine that goes "Bing!"?

Todomanna said @ 11:17pm GMT on 6th Jul [Score:2 Funny]
What the hell is Monty Pytho?

You're stupid.

f00m@nB@r said @ 6:45pm GMT on 6th Jul [Score:1 Informative]
if they really want phonetic, they should use the IPA. and then you'd have different spellings depending if you're from boston, atlanta, or toronto.

benjamander said @ 6:56pm GMT on 6th Jul
The alphabet would no long stretch accross the top of the blackboard, as it would have to be in 7 dimensional ultrasupermultihyperspace-time.

strangeffect said @ 8:31pm GMT on 6th Jul
still better than esperanto.

benjamander said @ 9:07pm GMT on 6th Jul
/truː/ðæt̚/stɻeɪʤɛfɛkt/

Saint_Marck said @ 6:47pm GMT on 6th Jul [Score:1 Informative]
Americans can't read and write as well because our educational systems have been dumbed down deliberately.

Oedi said @ 7:27pm GMT on 6th Jul
I believe this was posted a while back and would seem relevant to your statement...

And to reply to that dreadfully long poem, it seems to me that (at least given my Californian pronunciation) that a few of the differences the author is trying to illuminate have been lost to modern American English. His purpose and the majority of his efforts still stand, however.

Flommit said @ 6:51pm GMT on 6th Jul
How is "th" a simplification of 'the'?????

b said @ 8:54pm GMT on 6th Jul
there's no "e".

Todomanna said @ 11:18pm GMT on 6th Jul
Genius!

EPT said @ 4:24am GMT on 7th Jul [Score:1 Informative]
But is the word 'th' prounounced like 'th' in 'cloth' or the 'th' in 'the'? You need the other letters to contextualise it.

Flommit said @ 8:48am GMT on 7th Jul
Notice the 's' in 'contexualise' people; it's spelling done proper.

solitude said @ 1:55am GMT on 7th Jul
It should be "teh" ofcourse

googirl0007 said @ 7:11pm GMT on 6th Jul [Score:3 Insightful]
sure you can use simple spelling, you'll just come across as a simpleton

Sgt Harry 'Snapper' Organs.. said @ 5:45am GMT on 7th Jul
Cimpltn, actule.

gos_jim said @ 7:13pm GMT on 6th Jul
Lurning English reqierz roet memory rather than lojic, he sed.

what's "roet"?

gos_jim said @ 7:16pm GMT on 6th Jul
She uses it later as "wrote", but... "Learning English requires wrote memory rather than logic, he said"?

Oedi said @ 7:31pm GMT on 6th Jul
I believe the term implied is "rote," which roughly means learning my simple repetition and routine. Thus, rote memorization is memorization through simple, repeated exercise.

Shirobake said @ 7:34pm GMT on 6th Jul
Screw it, we should all just learn

Solresol

. It's cooler than Esperanto, gives a far greater appearance that the user is cultured, and would be easier for most people to learn, because it's based on music.

VictorTyne said @ 7:42pm GMT on 6th Jul
-1 Leetspeek

We have plenty of stupid netkiddies as it is.

borachio said @ 8:03pm GMT on 6th Jul [Score:1 Interesting]
Or you could do what us actors do and USE THE INTERNATIONAL PHONETIC ALPHABET (IPA). It's a little confusing at first, but -- like is suggested here -- everything is spelled how it's pronounced. And you can change dialects via spelling.

Once again, it is proven that artists are God.

benjamander said @ 9:17pm GMT on 6th Jul
or you could do what the rest of us do and read.

thesycophant said @ 10:50pm GMT on 6th Jul
I ♥ IPA.

sacrelicious said @ 1:55am GMT on 7th Jul
I # STOUT.

shiney things said @ 5:14am GMT on 7th Jul
i ♥ lamp

insanemonkey said @ 7:42am GMT on 7th Jul [Score:1 Insightful]
I♥#

revchoppy said @ 9:18am GMT on 7th Jul
I # Sac

gma said @ 8:16pm GMT on 6th Jul
Something tells me that changing the language based on an old Gallagher routine would be a bad idea.

BigTurk said @ 8:40pm GMT on 6th Jul [Score:2 Insightful]
I just plain like this post.

b said @ 8:56pm GMT on 6th Jul [Score:1 Underrated]
couldn't finish reading the article. too hard to read.

BigTurk said @ 9:22pm GMT on 6th Jul
I had the same problem, I kept skipping over the parts when he did the leet-speak and had to go back over them and piece em together.

ckfahrenheit said @ 11:43pm GMT on 6th Jul
I'm wondering if I really read things phonetically, especially if I'm reading rapidly

I think I read text visually without hearing the words; pretty sure I initially recognize words by their shape, not the sound of the words. I do hear the sound, but it definitely seems to come afterwards. Maybe that's why the article threw me. If I really read phonetically then I shouldn't have noticed much difference

black said @ 9:12pm GMT on 6th Jul
It's Text Message conversational English bullshit!!!

revchoppy said @ 9:47pm GMT on 6th Jul
Language is naturally evolving. There is no reason to have a "movement" to change it. If you think Shakespeare could be warped into the 21st century and could understand what the fuck we were talking about, you are sorely mistaken...

Oh, and if you DON'T think language is a fluid, go back and read Beowulf in its original form and get back to me. Have fun!

disturbed said @ 10:37pm GMT on 6th Jul
Old English Beowulf

liddlemonkey said @ 11:06pm GMT on 6th Jul
Beowulf is written in West Saxony - the term "Old English" is another Americanism designed to make the meaning easier to understand (i.e. another bit of "dumbing down" - this time for literary historians).

There was no country known as "England" and no people known as "English" in the 8th century so even the term "old English" is factually incorrect.

Which does support Rev's point about language evolving.

Here's a question: Anyone over 30 here from the UK remember what they were taught a lower case "z" looked like?

Fuck it - spell check means you can be as dumb as you fucking like and not have to worry about it anyway so who really cares?

You want to know why the world is as fucked up as it is: cos technology means that all the stupid but ruthless people who used to be kept in their place by their lack of brains can now run entire countries with a little help from Microsoft and IBM.

f00m@nB@r said @ 1:52am GMT on 7th Jul [Score:1 Informative]
lower case z, in cursive, has a tail?

liddlemonkey said @ 4:16am GMT on 7th Jul
Yeah - thank God; I thought I thought I hallucinated all those handwriting classes they made kids take when I was 8.

No one uses that anymore - I think that's because it's not on a keyboard.

revchoppy said @ 9:21am GMT on 7th Jul
What's even better was the cursive version of the uppercase "z".

liddlemonkey said @ 4:17am GMT on 7th Jul
Meant to deliver Karma unto thee. I'll put some random karmic goodness your way somewhere else...

insanemonkey said @ 7:44am GMT on 7th Jul
fixed :)

liddlemonkey said @ 9:39am GMT on 7th Jul
Thank you kindly sir/madam/non-gender specific person

liddlemonkey said @ 11:08pm GMT on 6th Jul [Score:1 Underrated]
Yay - lets not even bother trying to make our kids smarter, lets just make the stuff they have to learn easier!

Then we'll all have more time to spend watching TV.

ckfahrenheit said @ 11:32pm GMT on 6th Jul

b said @ 7:26am GMT on 7th Jul
yay zardoz!

yogi said @ 11:46pm GMT on 6th Jul
We can understand the different spelling in part because we know the original from whence it came. I'm not too sure we'd understand if the different spelling were learned first...

Caffeine said @ 12:45am GMT on 7th Jul
WAIT. I HAVE AN EVEN BETTER IDEA!!!!!!!!

We have too many different words. Since we're getting rid of worthless letters inside of words, why not take it a step further? Knock out the dead wood? That's right, I'm saying let's get rid of synonyms! Fuck that shit, having more than one word for something makes it confusing. For example, why keep "enraged", "infuriated", "furious", "steamed", "pissed off", "angry", or "livid" when you can just say "mad"?
We could just throw away the whole thesaurus! Worthless piece of garbage, I say!
And after english, we'll go after all the rest of the languages! Hiragana, katakana, and kanji are the next to get the ax. Those are way too fucking complex. Roman letters for all!
After all, when handling written and spoken language, the very crux of human civilization, what fucking good is complexity or subtlety?
Hell, fuck this "language" crap, it only keeps us apart. Let's just go back to grunts and pointing!
IGNORANCE, THE GREAT EQUALIZER! HOORAY!

Fenny said @ 12:52am GMT on 7th Jul [Score:2]
oook ook ooooook *points at Caffeine*

liddlemonkey said @ 4:19am GMT on 7th Jul
That's Orwellian Newspeak pretty much summed up.

sacrelicious said @ 12:54am GMT on 7th Jul [Score:1 Informative]
if we won't even adopt simplified units of measure, what makes anyone think this will fly at all?

Baxter_UK said @ 3:36am GMT on 7th Jul
This is really scary.

If I hadn't heard of similar ideas before, I'd think this article was a joke. Just like what 'liddlemonkey' said in his comment, why bother trying to make people smarter, just make what they have to learn easier.

Hell, why not do the same with maths; now the addition of any two numbers will always equal whatever the fuck you want!. History lessons will only cover the last three weeks! In sports, the 100m is now only 25m! Think how many more people will be able to run the 100m now!

EPT said @ 4:28am GMT on 7th Jul
How the fuck is 'moest' simpler than 'most'?

mattfish said @ 11:26am GMT on 7th Jul
The post lost the coast's cost of toast frost.

EPT said @ 4:29am GMT on 7th Jul [Score:1 Underrated]
...and "stoodents", what the hell is "stoodents"? No-one near me pronounces it that way. And that is why pure phonetic spelling should die a horrible death.

You say tom-ay-toe, I say tom-ah-toe, but at least we can fucking communicate in the written medium without having to understand other people's phonetics either. Far from increasing communication, this movement would hinder it.

For that matter: "hoep instead of hope" - huh? How is hoep is simplified? wouldn't it be pronounced ho-ep? Fuckwits.

Kimota said @ 5:38am GMT on 7th Jul
I am not a native english speaker, so I was kinda flabbergasted (yay for unnecessarily complex words) when I read thet bob, tomb and com don't rhyme. ow is that even possible?

Dioxin said @ 7:31am GMT on 7th Jul
Polish bass.

Kimota said @ 12:12pm GMT on 7th Jul
That's so crass.

insanemonkey said @ 7:37am GMT on 7th Jul
Now I just wanna talk quickly about language, and then we can all go. Yeah, language. They do say Britain and America are two countries separated by the Atlantic Ocean, and it’s true. No, they say, “two countries separated by a common language,” that’s the line; it’s an Oscar Wilde line, I think. And we do pronounce things in a different way, like you say “caterpillar” and we say “caterpillar,” and… You say “aluminum” and we say “aluminium.” You say, “centrifugal” and we say “centrifugal.” You say, “leisure” and we say “lizuray.” You say “baysil” and we say “bahsil.” You say “’erbs” and we say “herbs,” because there’s a fucking “H” in it… But you spell through THRU, and I’m with you on that, ‘cause we spell it “THRUFF,” and that’s trying to cheat at Scrabble.

“How can we get that “OU” sound?”

“Well, a “U” will work,”

“What about an “O” as well?”

“We don’t need it, we’re fine.”

“No, I think an “O” in.”

“Well, all right.”

“And a “G” as well.”

“What?!”

“Yes, a “G” would be good. We need a silent “G” in the background, in case of any accidents or something.”

“Well, all right.”

“And an “H” as well.”

“Fucking ‘ell! Hang on.”

“An “H” in case some herbs come along.”

“All right…”

“And a Q, and a P, and a Z… Look it’s a word in Scrabble that’s 480 points!”

shiney things said @ 8:12am GMT on 7th Jul
+1 eddie izzard
-1 too long

Dioxin said @ 7:45am GMT on 7th Jul
The simplification is supposed to come after the flame deluge.

cluban said @ 9:24am GMT on 7th Jul
Reminds me of that black and white comic strip in my old copies of HeavyMetal magazine... "1984" where all of the dialog was phonetic gibberish like this!